Working in secret - is it a good or bad thing?

Not long ago I was contacted by a company that sells high end luxury products. They were seeking quality hand engraving with the catch that the work would remain private, and I wouldn’t be able to show the finished pieces, talk to anyone about who I was working for or what I was engraving, and of course not post photos of my work. I told them I would not do work for them under those conditions.

As engravers, we spend our careers building our brands and our reputations, and having restrictions like that can be a huge setback. Before you know it the months and possibly years go by without the benefit of showcasing your best work. Part of the payment for our labor is getting good photos of our latest engravings which will be used to generate future work. No matter how you look at it, working under a secret arrangement means you’ll be making less money when you factor in the loss of building your brand.

From a business perspective I understand where the company’s coming from. They’re probably not bad people. They want all of the glory for the product, and they don’t want future customers or competitors working directly with the artists. They’re making business decisions which they feel are in their best interest.

I’m not saying engravers shouldn’t work under a secret arrangement. Weigh the pros and cons and if you think it’s in your best interest then by all means go for it. Just remember what you’re not getting in the deal.

~Sam Alfano

Companies want certainty and guarantees that artist will not come work in rivalry company

Can be make Contract & Agreement of Service Exclusivity of this article(s) between engraver and company
The engraver agrees to provide engraving on the specific article only and exclusively to the company. Of course, the company must provide a good volume of this article orders

So maybe all will be satisfied

Regards,
Evgeni

the rule used to be "good, fast, & cheap- pick any two." now maybe "secret" needs factored in? for enough money i'd be perfectly happy working in obscurity. send 'em my way. and yeah, i'm serious.

A good volume...and a GOOD compensation! I would 'maybe' do that at double my normal price and when death intervenes it all comes out for posterity!! Nor do I have any doubt that it will never happen (I'm not talking about the death part).

Having been through this a time or two over the course of a working lifetime, I agree with Sam. In my situation working for private mints, I seldom have control over credit for work. I have also learned that promised compensation for signing the dotted line is not always kept, and it is more often than not hurtful in the long run. Sometimes you even get farmed out, and other times you do work other artists take credit for. I am barely known in my field, and this is why.

Double the rate might make it more palatable.

Steve Adams said:

Having been through this a time or two over the course of a working lifetime, I agree with Sam. In my situation working for private mints, I seldom have control over credit for work. I have also learned that promised compensation for signing the dotted line is not always kept, and it is more often than not hurtful in the long run. Sometimes you even get farmed out, and other times you do work other artists take credit for. I am barely known in my field, and this is why.

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That is indeed tragic Steve. I know you to be an amazing engraver and artist. It pains me to think that there's work out there you can't show us because of a contractual obligation. These situations only help the company and never help the artist.

I have worked for the past 15 years for several companies who have always treated me fairly - in return for not talking about whose work I do, plastering it all over the Internet nor taking any credit for myself. Some of it is one of a kind/bespoke and some is limited edition/mass production.

I have no problem with that - they pay me quite well, and I don't feel an overwhelming urge to feed my ego. (as long as my body gets fed)

When I was much younger, I used to worry about that stuff. Along with what I "looked like".

After being involuntarily physically "remodeled" a couple times, I realized that unless I got to the level of a Michelangelo (in the present day, in our niche, that would be Phil Coggan) vanity of any kind is a luxury that I must do without.

I don't miss it much. In the end it all comes down to what is important to the individual...


Brian

sam said:

Not long ago I was contacted by a company that sells high end luxury products. They were seeking quality hand engraving with the catch that the work would remain private, and I wouldn’t be able to show the finished pieces, talk to anyone about who I was working for or what I was engraving, and of course not post photos of my work. I told them I would not do work for them under those conditions.

As engravers, we spend our careers building our brands and our reputations, and having restrictions like that can be a huge setback. Before you know it the months and possibly years go by without the benefit of showcasing your best work. Part of the payment for our labor is getting good photos of our latest engravings which will be used to generate future work. No matter how you look at it, working under a secret arrangement means you’ll be making less money when you factor in the loss of building your brand.

From a business perspective I understand where the company’s coming from. They’re probably not bad people. They want all of the glory for the product, and they don’t want future customers or competitors working directly with the artists. They’re making business decisions which they feel are in their best interest.

I’m not saying engravers shouldn’t work under a secret arrangement. Weigh the pros and cons and if you think it’s in your best interest then by all means go for it. Just remember what you’re not getting in the deal.

~Sam Alfano

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I have only a few different foreign ( out of my country ) customers and they exactly want the same thing from me.


I play according to their rules. I have two reason why I am doing this.

1- In my country, people don't want to pay for engraving, most of the people see it as a wasted money and rest of them are not understand engraving so they buy very cheap engravings like a 3 years old kid's painting, as a result I can not make any profit in my country.

2- ( this is the most important reason ) I have a family that I need to take care, I have a son that I need to pay for his scholl, I have a car that I nee to pay its tax and ...... list goes like this.

Because of these two reason I have to play according to their rules. If I don't play like that I need to find a new job but it is almost impossible because companies are looking and trying new ways to discharge their workers because economy is going down very sharp here in Turkey.

I made some very nice engravings but I don't show it neither on this forum nor on my facebook page, if they see a very small photo they don't want to make business with me again,

Do they pay me good money, NOOOOO, but I can afford to feed my family and pay my taxes.

Getting boxed in to an arrangement like that would also disconnect you from the rest of the world to some degree. If you didn't know what your competition was charging for similar work you couldn't even ask. How would you know that were even getting fairly compensated if you signed on the line?? My freedom to succeed or fail is worth more to me as an artist than that I guess.Thank God I live in Idaho!!!!!!!!!!!

I think every artist deserves recognition for their work and should get it. That is why artists sign their work. When articles come up for sale the name of the artist can add to the value. If someone wants it to be unnamed I would be suspicious. Most likely copies would be made, even mass produced. I know you copyright your work. If you should take the job you should own the copyright.

The arrangement that Sam Alfano makes reference to is nothing new for craftsmen. It is a main reason that arms engravers through history are largely unknown today. One of my contacts in Germany once told me that prior to WWII, no gun engraver in Germany was allowed to sign his or her work by agreement between the gunmakers. As a member of the German Gun Collector's Assn., I am often asked if I know who engraved a particular gun. All I can do is refer them to Hendrik Fruehof who can sometimes discern the engraver's identity by stylistic aspects. In fact, I know of two top custom gun makers in Austria who won't let their contract engravers sign their work (and it is fabulous work indeed). I have even asked directly who the engraver of a particular gun is and they wouldn't tell me (in some cases I already knew who the engraver was).

At last year's FEGA show a gentleman approached my table, offered his name, and said he was a gun engraver. I had never heard of him. He then presented something to show his work and I immediately recognized his scroll. I had seen it on many "factory" engraved guns over the years but was always unsigned. He told me that he works exclusively for various gunmakers and is never allowed to sign his work. He also told me his average annual income from engraving, and if true, it was astounding. This was possible because he only does one style of scroll, no scenes, figures, or inlay, and he does multiples of the same thing. He can do it in his sleep. He also said that he works seven days a week, 10-12 hours per day!

I know a couple of engravers who had secret agreements with particular firms that kept them busy and well compensated for a number of years. The problem for each of them was that, eventually, one firm went out of business and the owner of the other died. At that point the engravers had no work, no reputation, and no income. Basically each, in turn had to build a reputation and find new customers as if they were beginners. One of the engravers told me he would never let himself become dependent on one secret client again.

It is my experience that American gun engravers generally have clients that are on a number of levels or tiers. For those engravers in the top tier, who do highly artistic and technically demanding work, it is important for them to build and protect their reputation, Their exclusive clientele want their work, in part, because of their reputation and name recognition. Conversely, others are satisfied to do repetitious, work in obscurity to pay the bills. There is nothing wrong with that. Craftsmen have worked that way for centuries. There are a couple of tiers between these two extremes. Everybody who sticks with hand engraving will eventually find their niche and what works for them.

The shoe on the other foot.
I know firearms engravers who do very good standard factory engraving for gun companies and INSIST that the company keep it secret.
They get get a steady stream of work. Get paid good money and don't want the hassle of private people wanting them to do a bootleg copy.
May not be quite the same thing that Sam A. is facing if they are wanting all custom designs.
These engravers originally work out set, repeatable designs for standardized production firearms with a price to do the engraving.
They get paid for the initial design and assign design rights to the gun maker.
They are then paid an agreed piece work price for each engraving, often with an annual minimum assurance.
Maybe not for everyone but it assures a good steady income to put kids through college etc. and still leaves time to do some custom work.
And they still work from home with no time clock to punch.

I was once approached by a VERY well off client and asked to work exclusively for him in a situation similar to what Sam has described. I asked around for advice from my more business savvy clients, friends, acquaintances and was given the following advice. Maybe it will help someone who is contemplating a situation similar to what Sam has described.

1. GET A LAWYER (If your signing a contract as important as the one that will control your livelihood its pretty good advice IMO)
2. Demand top (even what you would consider crazy money) as a form of compensation for what you will be losing. Name recognition etc.
3. Guaranteed time or at least amount of work to be done, in other words you’re guaranteed x amount of dollars for x amount of years or pieces. This would help you to prepare for when you are about to again be in the public eye IMO.
4. Don’t forget about the usual things an “employee” normally receives. Healthcare, retirement, etc.
5. KEEP RECORDS. You may not be able to show it or talk about it but someday someone like Mr. Bielle may come along and want to know who did this work. It may not help you but maybe your children or children’s children. (I don’t know about anyone else but most of the time your work becomes the most valuable when you are gone, with this in mind I have held back and continue to make unknown not seen by the public “legacy” pieces here and there and have instructed my children on what to do with them when I am gone.)

This list is not compete of course but I thought it was a good start. FYI that client ended up wanting me to work for (what I consider) peanuts and balked big time when I made some of the above demands.

On a personal note I love what I do but a man’s “got to get paid”. Agree with greed, want etc. or not money is what makes this world we live in go around and if I could double or triple my income under the right circumstances by assuming anonymity I would. Regardless of talent some people are good at making money and capitalizing on that talent and some not so much.

I have gone through this exercise for the past 20 years in the jewellery industry as a goldsmith and gem setter.
I am fed up!!!
Jewelers contracting work out to me that is too specialised for them to do themselves, then taking full credit for the work that I did!
Now technology coming in and wet behind the ears college students flooding the job market as CAD designers, nearly all of them having hands of clay when it comes to working at the bench.
Never being able to take the credit for the work that I do and getting paid a pittance as well.
This is all wrong!!
I am changing my game plan. Aiming to become a full time knife maker and engraver. Mainly specializing in art knives.
So far the results look promising with my lower estimates at two times my current monthly income! And I can take full credit for the work I do!

Different strokes... for different folks...

Stroke MY palm with hundred dollar bills!

I need nothing more.


B.

I have done work for customers on the condition that they never tell anybody I did it. It was their art work that I resented. It was good fast money.

It’s all about balance. The Yin and the Yang…………….income and reputation.

I’m happy to do some production work without signing the work or having any formal recognition………….I call it bread and butter work because it pays well and the clients are excellent to deal with.

However, I wouldn’t want every job to be like that simply because I enjoy the creative side of things and want to build my reputation and portfolio. Besides that, everyone likes to feel the love and get praise for their work. Me included

If they want cheap……..then I simply can’t help them out and recommend they go elsewhere. Not to be confused with small jobs that can be quite profitable.

I’m also happy to engrave other peoples designs occasionally…………so long as they are good ones!!!! I refuse to engrave crap designs as it’s my reputation as the engraver that is on the line.

There are also clients that don’t want their work shown all over the place because they feel that the work may get copied or it’s an invasion of their privacy. (and yes, I’ve had my designs copied)

Other clients are happy for their work to be shown in public because they are proud of it and want the world to know.

So it’s a mixture of all of the above and then some.

Cheers
Andrew

or the company does not want it's customers know it is supporting a known gun engraver!!! but the bottom line is are the kids getting feed.
Skill comes from diligence

very interesting conversation