Nimschke scroll for practice

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

Looks like a flat to me as well.

In all the collections of old push gravers or chisels that I've seen, there has never been anything like a modern day wide "V" geometry - 110, 115, 120.

A 120 leaned over could do that though...

Brian

FANCYGUN · Dec 7, 2016

I think flat Sam just by looking at the end of the cut. It seems squared off I've also wondered about the main splines I think that can go either way at times.

Sam · Dec 7, 2016

I would love the opportunity to study a Nimschke piece under a microscope.

Roger Bleile · Dec 7, 2016

FANCYGUN said:
Roger
Do you think those flared cuts are done with a flat graver or a rolled V tool?

I've always wondered about that myself. Most gun engravers trained in Germany, that I have met, do most of their cutting with an onglette (that they call a "spitzstichel"). I have a book entitled Firearms Engraving as Decorative Art by Dr. Fredric A. Harris that shows pictures of Nimschke's cuts taken through a microscope. It also shows work by Gustave Young and Conrad Ulrich. It appears to me that the flared cuts are made with a flat cutting on one corner and rolled.

At one time, if I recall correctly, the late Lynton McKenzie owned LDN's hammer and some tools. I think they ended up in the recently deceased Robert M. Lee's collection. Some of Lee's guns just went up at auction with Rock Island Auctions but I didn't see the tools. I suspect they will parcel out the collection so the market isn't flooded with too many high value guns at once. I'll be looking for the tools.

Big-Un · Dec 7, 2016

sam said:
I would love the opportunity to study a Nimschke piece under a microscope.

I can't remember where I saw it, but an engraver did an extensive study of hammer and chisel engraving and used a microscope to explain how the chisel marks could be identified for a particular engraver. If I remember correctly, he had pictures of LDN as well as a few others, all with high magnification to show the difference in techniques. It was an older study and very well done.

I hate getting old...suffering from CRS syndrome (can't remember squat!)

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

The book may be "Firearms Engraving As Decorative Art" by Frederic A. Harris?

Only one I can think of that has the microscope images...

Brian

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

Sam, if you haven't seen the book above - it may well be the next best thing to holding the piece in your hand under your own microscope....

B.

Frank P · Dec 7, 2016

sam said:
Frank P: I have updated my original post with a downloadable .svg version of the file.

Thanks a bunch Sam

Fred Bowen · Dec 7, 2016

I also have Harris' book and the photos are worth the price. An extremely magnified detail of the flared cut from the previous scroll to the inside of the next looks like a ratchet cut by a few very strong hammer blows. It looks like it was cut with a flat to me, but I suppose it could have been an onglette.

Sam · Dec 7, 2016

Brian Marshall said:
Sam, if you haven't seen the book above - it may well be the next best thing to holding the piece in your hand under your own microscope....

B.

No I don't have it, but thanks for the heads-up. I just got a copy on eBay. I'm anxious to see the photos you're speaking of!

Big-Un · Dec 7, 2016

I believe that is the book. Looks like most of his work was done with a flat.

Update: just ordered the book from Amazon, good price for "like new" (we'll see), new ones in the $350 range.

Sam · Dec 7, 2016

Roger Bleile said:
I've always wondered about that myself. Most gun engravers trained in Germany, that I have met, do most of their cutting with an onglette (that they call a "spitzstichel"). I have a book entitled Firearms Engraving as Decorative Art by Dr. Fredric A. Harris that shows pictures of Nimschke's cuts taken through a microscope. It also shows work by Gustave Young and Conrad Ulrich. It appears to me that the flared cuts are made with a flat cutting on one corner and rolled.

At one time, if I recall correctly, the late Lynton McKenzie owned LDN's hammer and some tools. I think they ended up in the recently deceased Robert M. Lee collection. Some of Lee's guns just went up at auction with Rock Island Auctions but I didn't see the tools. I suspect they will parcel out the collection so the market isn't flooded with too many high value guns at once. I'll be looking for the tools.

Roger, keep us posted about LDN's tools if they become available. I heard McKenzie had them at one time. I'd love to see a photo of them.

John B. · Dec 7, 2016

This may or may not have anything to do with L.D.Nimschke and his flair cutting
But many of the old time engravers and this includes several of the Russian sculptured engraving artists use onglettes that are sharpened with one straight, sharp vertical side from the point up to the back of the graver. The other side retains it's slight curvature.
They use left and right hand versions of these tools.
With them it is possible to produce very fine cuts that open into sweeping flairs or deep vertical walls.
These tools were regularly used by old timers for some types of lettering including some styles of script fonts.
With the amount of work LDN produced I doubt that he took the time to switch between left and right hand gravers.
Among modern day engravers I believe that the late George Sherwood of Oregon cut the finest Nimschke style engraving I've seen.
He also did some wonderful Western engraving.
And George cut everything with a flat with a slightly radius lift. He was a good friend and a fine and very fast engraver.

silverchip · Dec 7, 2016

I think George had a little book out on his engraving and it might have included a tutorial on Nimshke scroll design.

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

I have the Sherwood booklet around here somewhere...

I'll keep an eye out for it.

B.

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

Found it. No tutorial, just images of knives, floorplates, trigger guards, buckles & such...

Also found little booklets by Roger Bleile, Koevenig, Ben Shostle and Ralph Ingle - all from back in the day.

Brian

Sam · Dec 7, 2016

Thank you John. Great info there. Don't they make a flat sided onglette or am I dreaming? Seems like I've seen those somewhere...or maybe just an illustration of them.

George was a fine fellow and a great asset to the engraving community. He gave me a practice plate of his western brightcut engraving. I don't recall seeing his Nimschke work though. No doubt he could execute it like a pro.

Brian Marshall · Dec 7, 2016

First, I DID find the Sherwood book that Dave was talking about, different than the little booklet (above) which was more of a sales brochure.

FEGA used to sell it. Firearms Engraving, Theory and Design. Couldn't find a date, but gotta be close to 30+ years?

Definitely worth having if FEGA still sells them.

Also has outlines for various common firearms in the back.

Second, Yes, Sam they made (may still make?) the half onglettes. Right and left.

I've always used them for diamond setting though, never for engraving.

I forget who taught me to use those in stone setting, but they definitely work well - with the 2 different edges.

Brian

Andrew Biggs · Dec 7, 2016

Alexander Siderov uses the onglette with the flat side for left and right cutting/engraving and stone setting.

If you want to make a deep border cut, the onglette can't be beaten as it's a very strong point and narrow so you can go deep without having a wide cut like a normal square graver will give you. When you lean it over you have the entire face edge that can be used for cutting a bevel or flare cut. This is especially useful for cutting bright cuts when stone setting.

Martin Strolz also uses the onglette a lot for his engraving.

The flat is a favourite tool for Russian engravers to cut all their main lines and I've seen it used to great effect on watch movement parts.

Meeks has an example of the flat in his book and it's shaped more like a wood chisel with a very small face. Works great on softer metals but not so well on hard metals as the edges can break very easily.

Cheers
Andrew

John B. · Dec 7, 2016

sam said:
Thank you John. Great info there. Don't they make a flat sided onglette or am I dreaming? Seems like I've seen those somewhere...or maybe just an illustration of them.

George was a fine fellow and a great asset to the engraving community. He gave me a practice plate of his western brightcut engraving. I don't recall seeing his Nimschke work though. No doubt he could execute it like a pro.

Thank you Sam and you're not dreaming.
F.C. Muller Company made left and right half onglettes for many years.
They and other companies may still make them, but I don't know for sure.
Some of the Russian sculpting engravers start with a big onglette die sinkers chisel and grind and sharpen one side or both.
I make mine from regular onglette gravers and many of them do too.

Nimschke scroll for practice

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