Learning and teaching.

John B.

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A recent thread "Update on my floor plate" caused a little flurry of controversy.
Some members got upset over it. :(:mad:
Many of us who have done some teaching realize that learning follows a different path for individuals. And it is much different when teaching face-to-face where you can sense an individual's response to direction than it is when trying to provide the help and guidance remotely on a forum or by email.
Mike Morgan provided an excellent comment for those that are the harder shell students. The learning swimmers that jump in the deep end and directly learn to swim. If you are that type of student follow Mikes good advise. You will "Suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" but learn in a hurry.
Others can learn, often at a much slower rate by quiet and constant observation combined with drawing and practice.
Bottom line......This is a wonderful and valuable resource for the interchange of knowledge and friendship. Let's figure out how to keep it a great and welcoming place for novice and expert alike.
Off the soap box now. :eek:
 

FANCYGUN

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As a long time teacher that is very well said John We all have different ways of teaching the same thing according to our experiences and temperaments a lot also is determined by the student Nothing beats face to face learning A good teacher learns how to read the student and adjusts as they go along As a student you must realize that what we do is not an overnight acheivement but something that is learned and aquired over many years and many mistakes There is more to engraving than learning how to cut a line
 

FANCYGUN

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Brian i like that Especially students that are willing to listen But i do know i still have many more mistakes yet to be learned from so I havent already made all the mistakes Some of them just blindside you no matter how much you think you know
 

John B.

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Thank you Jerry, Marty and Brian for your input.
We have all made some mistakes and I hope to live long enough to make more.
Jerry, I miss our long ago days at the Great Western shows.
Do you and your family still make those great leather fanny packs.
I still use one I got at the Great Western.......they are the new "IN thing" after 40 years.
 

Sam

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Thank you for your words of wisdom, John! Always appreciated.

You too Brian and Marty :)
 

Big-Un

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I am NOT a trained teacher, so the subtle nuances of teaching elude me, but when asked by someone for advice on their engraving, I do my best to give them an honest critique. It is difficult sometimes to be brutally honest with compassion for their sensitivities as all of us want the truth but softened with some form of humility. I always try and start with something positive to say about their work, but occasionally it just isn't there. At least at that time I can say they are trying very hard, BUT....then be as honest as possible without being brutal. It is especially difficult when I see the same mistakes over and over, knowing my corrections have either been ignored or just didn't sink in, which becomes my fault for failing to teach properly. At that point I sometimes wonder if the student would be better served with input from someone else, but there just isn't another engraving person nearby to send them to. So, I just buckle down and reevaluate my teaching method and try to find another approach to the problem. Unfortunately, some folks want to engrave but just don't have it.
 

Mike_Morgan

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I enjoy supportive and encouraging comments as much as the next guy, but with that being said, my harshest critics have been my most valued mentors. And I have been truly blessed to have had many many good, straight shooting educators in my life.

I have seen people recoil from blunt comments in every field of endeavor, and I have seen those people that are surprised by the bluntness respond with disrespect for the person that was blunt. There's a certain amount of human nature in that. When a person feels they have been disrespected, they all too often respond in kind. And then it escalates!

But what if, when you feel disrespected, that you respond in a different way? What if you take a moment, let it all sink in and ask yourself: "what can I learn from this?" The first, and most obvious thing I learn in an encounter such as this is that the "feeling" that I am not being respected may NOT be what is actually happening. Is it possible, that the bluntness is coming from a place of ACTUAL respect? Could it be coming from a place where the person being blunt respects me enough to believe I can handle his harsh criticism? All too often, this is the case. When I look further, and have the fortitude to not initially react, I can find that on some level I am actually being HIGHLY respected... not for the work for which I am being critiqued, but the bigger picture... I am being respected for my ability to handle adversity.

But occasionally, and this is rare, the guy that is being blunt is just a jerk. And I can learn from that as well. There are jerks in this world, and sometimes they are jerks that are extremely talented. I'm sure we ALL know some pretty talented jerks. Can we learn from them? SURE WE CAN! Is it easy to learn from them? Not really... but with patience, and drive, and the deepest of understanding that teachers are not always going to treat us the way we would like to be treated, we can learn a whole lot from them.

I value opportunity above pretty much anything else in this world. If you have tons of ambition, and no opportunity, you're going nowhere. AND if you have tons of opportunity and no ambition, you're still going nowhere. But when opportunity meets ambition... magic happens!

This forum, for me, is where opportunity meets ambition. I pinch myself when I see all this opportunity. I started this whole endeavor less than a year ago, and those that have been encouraging have lifted me up! And those that have been critical have fueled my passion to strive to be excellent. I love to prove critics wrong. We all do. But I would rather prove them wrong by showing them I can advance my engraving skills, rather than prove them wrong by telling them to improve their communication skills.

The opportunity is that they are here, communicating with me... good, bad, or indifferent.

It frustrates me to see people struggling over "the way in which a message was delivered" and I also feel somewhat puzzled when messages that were not intended to ruffle feathers causes a rift in the general make-up of this place. This craft seems to draw some big personalities.

I used the word respect a lot in this post, because for me, this is what it's all about. And since this topic is about teaching and learning, I'll end it with this... As students we need to respect the time and effort that our mentors are sharing with us. They don't have to be so generous with their time. We also have to respect the fact that these folks that are so generous with their time may NOT be trained teachers with uplifting and supportive methods of teaching. We need to respect them enough to FIND the message from which we can learn, and it won't always be about engraving, in fact, it may actually be a life lesson.

And as TEACHERS we need to respect that our students will not always get it. That our students may, on occasion, miss the point of our comments and feel disrespected in turn. This is a good time to remind people that no disrespect was intended.

In life we are ALWAYS both student, and teacher. If you know something that somebody else doesn't know, you teach them... even if you are the student, and they are the teacher. That's what's called "Mutual Respect"
 

Mark Knapp

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I enjoy supportive and encouraging comments as much as the next guy, but with that being said, my harshest critics have been my most valued mentors. And I have been truly blessed to have had many many good, straight shooting educators in my life.

I have seen people recoil from blunt comments in every field of endeavor, and I have seen those people that are surprised by the bluntness respond with disrespect for the person that was blunt. There's a certain amount of human nature in that. When a person feels they have been disrespected, they all too often respond in kind. And then it escalates!

But what if, when you feel disrespected, that you respond in a different way? What if you take a moment, let it all sink in and ask yourself: "what can I learn from this?" The first, and most obvious thing I learn in an encounter such as this is that the "feeling" that I am not being respected may NOT be what is actually happening. Is it possible, that the bluntness is coming from a place of ACTUAL respect? Could it be coming from a place where the person being blunt respects me enough to believe I can handle his harsh criticism? All too often, this is the case. When I look further, and have the fortitude to not initially react, I can find that on some level I am actually being HIGHLY respected... not for the work for which I am being critiqued, but the bigger picture... I am being respected for my ability to handle adversity.

But occasionally, and this is rare, the guy that is being blunt is just a jerk. And I can learn from that as well. There are jerks in this world, and sometimes they are jerks that are extremely talented. I'm sure we ALL know some pretty talented jerks. Can we learn from them? SURE WE CAN! Is it easy to learn from them? Not really... but with patience, and drive, and the deepest of understanding that teachers are not always going to treat us the way we would like to be treated, we can learn a whole lot from them.

I value opportunity above pretty much anything else in this world. If you have tons of ambition, and no opportunity, you're going nowhere. AND if you have tons of opportunity and no ambition, you're still going nowhere. But when opportunity meets ambition... magic happens!

This forum, for me, is where opportunity meets ambition. I pinch myself when I see all this opportunity. I started this whole endeavor less than a year ago, and those that have been encouraging have lifted me up! And those that have been critical have fueled my passion to strive to be excellent. I love to prove critics wrong. We all do. But I would rather prove them wrong by showing them I can advance my engraving skills, rather than prove them wrong by telling them to improve their communication skills.

The opportunity is that they are here, communicating with me... good, bad, or indifferent.

It frustrates me to see people struggling over "the way in which a message was delivered" and I also feel somewhat puzzled when messages that were not intended to ruffle feathers causes a rift in the general make-up of this place. This craft seems to draw some big personalities.

I used the word respect a lot in this post, because for me, this is what it's all about. And since this topic is about teaching and learning, I'll end it with this... As students we need to respect the time and effort that our mentors are sharing with us. They don't have to be so generous with their time. We also have to respect the fact that these folks that are so generous with their time may NOT be trained teachers with uplifting and supportive methods of teaching. We need to respect them enough to FIND the message from which we can learn, and it won't always be about engraving, in fact, it may actually be a life lesson.

And as TEACHERS we need to respect that our students will not always get it. That our students may, on occasion, miss the point of our comments and feel disrespected in turn. This is a good time to remind people that no disrespect was intended.

In life we are ALWAYS both student, and teacher. If you know something that somebody else doesn't know, you teach them... even if you are the student, and they are the teacher. That's what's called "Mutual Respect"

All well said, but sometimes things are said that are just unnecessary.
 

Memorymaker

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What if you just don't say disrespectful things in the first place.

That said, there are a lot of very accomplished and talented engravers here and I totally appreciate and cherish in them sharing the finer points of their experience. I also would appreciate any constructive criticism should I decide to show any of my scratchings on metal. Can't call it engraving yet and I never plan on becoming a professional.
I totally thank those that teach us.
 
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Sam

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John B, if you taught Silverchip then you have bragging rights! I remember seeing his amazing engraved silver flask at FEGA a few years ago. I was blown away by his work.
 

Brian Marshall

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I am also proud to have spent a coupla summer sessions with John Barraclough as my teacher. Hard to believe, but that was almost 30 years ago...

Though he was not the first, that would have been Victor Vasquez and Francis Harry - he was the one who first "opened my eyes" to amazing possibilities that I would never have known had I not taken those first "formal/official" classes with him and begun cutting steel as well as precious metals.

Those were the days when you could still find classes that went for two full weeks AND you could come back into the classroom after dinner and practice 'till 9 or 10 pm! (I've kept the tradition of keeping the classroom open in the evenings, but today's realities have sadly shrunken our time frame to 3 to 5 day intensives)

Later on I was privileged to spend two weeks each with Sam Welch and Eric Gold - both of whom also greatly influenced me. As did the shorter time I was able to spend with Chris DeCamillis...


Brian
 
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John B.

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John B, if you taught Silverchip then you have bragging rights! I remember seeing his amazing engraved silver flask at FEGA a few years ago. I was blown away by his work.

Thank you Sam and Brian for the generous comments.
Both Silverchip and Brian Marshall paid me the honor of taking my classes and allowing me to expose them to some of my methods.
But both of these gentlemen were and are talented artist engravers before I got to lead them astray. :) :)
I showed them some different techniques but their artistry came from within.
I am very proud to have known these talented gentlemen together with my other fine students.
I've learned from each one and count them all as friends.
 
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