Update on my floor plate

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

Mike_Morgan said:
I'm a relative beginner at this art form, and speaking from my perspective, I wouldn't want the experts to pull any punches when asking for a critique. Each of the veterans on here have their own style of critique, and people really need to understand that some offer a more gentle and uplifting style, and others have a more abrupt method. Both are valid vehicles to deliver criticism.

Some will tell you what is right, while others will tell you what is wrong. Anybody developing new skills will need to hear both.

I feel compelled to add that some of the beginners in this forum don't take criticism very well. Do you want to be a great engraver some day? You're not going to get there by being told how terrific your effort is. You're going to get there by being told what the heck you're doing wrong, because THAT is the shortest path to excellence.

It doesn't matter what Thierry Dugets first engraving looked like. What matters is that professional engravers are willing to share their input with absolute beginners, and I feel that the beginners should act and comport themselves in a way that shows appreciation for the opportunity to have an audience with some of the best engravers in the world. I would FAR rather have a pro tell me I need to work harder, than to have a supportive bunch of amateurs telling me how delightful my effort is.

What Thierry Dugets did was not constructive OR criticism. What he did served in no way to further my or anyone else' knowledge or abilities. What he did was essentially tell me that I suck and he told another novice that he was too stupid to know that I suck.

I know the difference between constructive criticism and just tearing someone down for no reason. I have a thick enough skin to take comments like that but it just doesn't serve any good purpose. I'm trying to illustrate the difference, because in my opinion there is no need for the insults. No-one should be afraid to show their stuff here, that's one of the biggest problems with social media.

I can drop it and get back to talking about engraving at anytime but as long as people try to tear people down, I will speak out about it. We get the forum we deserve.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

sam said:
You can obviously cut so you have that part well underway.
Artistically this is not very good. You have much drawing practice ahead of you.
Most of us have about a thousand bad scrolls in us that we have to draw out. The sooner you start filling sketchbooks with scroll design practice the sooner you'll start working through them.

As a side note and as you have seen, it's often not well received to post a photo and ask people to go easy or be gentle with critique. We're all in this together to learn and improve. When you post a photo you'd better brace yourself for honest critique. And this critique is incredibly valuable and something most of us didn't have access to back when we started. We struggled blindly only to see each other's work, get inspired, and talk shop at a yearly show.

I leave you with a photo of the first knife I engraved, which isn't nearly as good as your floor plate.

View attachment 40026

Thank you very much for your critique, it was valuable and worth while. I will do what you say.

Why is it so hard for some people to see the difference between what you and Edward said and what Thierry Dugets said. I did not, and could not learn anything from what Thierry said. It's a shame because he is obviously a very talented engraver. Just think what the novices around here could learn from him if he could instruct as well as he can engrave and spit insults. I did not come here to be insulted, I came here to learn from guys like you and Edward.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

Mike_Morgan said:
How is your engraving coming along?

Mike, on the matter of what is critique and what is not, what difference does it make how well Memorymaker engraves? Is his opinion not valid if he is not a good engraver?

Sam · Dec 2, 2016

Ok, I think everyone's made their points so let's let it go, do a group hug, and get back to work.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

sam said:
Ok, I think everyone's made their points so let's let it go, do a group hug, and get back to work.

I'm up for that.

Can you please tell me what specifically I should work on in my scroll drawing. I'm going to order Ron Smith's book, but it's a little expensive. I recently spent a lot of money on my boat and I'm "not allowed to" (my wife) spend any more for a little while. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Brian Marshall · Dec 2, 2016

Go to the FEGA website. I think that they still have the other smaller/earlier versions of books by Ron Smith?

A large part of the content of these is similar and/or the same and they are more "economical"....

Brian

Sam · Dec 2, 2016

Here's a good place to start as far as learning scroll design. This is the work of L.D. Nimschke. I would encourage you to practice drawing this until you can do it reasonably well.

You have an odd mix of elements that don't harmonize. The sizes of some are very small and others are awkwardly large. Study the consistency of LDN's work and you'll see what I mean. He has a perfect balance of roll and elements and negative space. This is what you should be striving for.

Mark Knapp said:
I'm up for that.

Can you please tell me what specifically I should work on in my scroll drawing. I'm going to order Ron Smith's book, but it's a little expensive. I recently spent a lot of money on my boat and I'm "not allowed to" (my wife) spend any more for a little while. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

sam said:
View attachment 40028

Here's a good place to start as far as learning scroll design. This is the work of L.D. Nimschke. I would encourage you to practice drawing this until you can do it reasonably well.

You have an odd mix of elements that don't harmonize. The sizes of some are very small and others are awkwardly large. Study the consistency of LDN's work and you'll see what I mean. He has a perfect balance of roll and elements and negative space. This is what you should be striving for.

That looks very good. I like it very much, I will try to do it on the receiver. Thanks.

Thierry Duguet · Dec 2, 2016

Mark Knapp said:
What Thierry Dugets did was not constructive OR criticism. What he did served in no way to further my or anyone else' knowledge or abilities. What he did was essentially tell me that I suck and he told another novice that he was too stupid to know that I suck.

I know the difference between constructive criticism and just tearing someone down for no reason. I have a thick enough skin to take comments like that but it just doesn't serve any good purpose. I'm trying to illustrate the difference, because in my opinion there is no need for the insults. No-one should be afraid to show their stuff here, that's one of the biggest problems with social media.

I can drop it and get back to talking about engraving at anytime but as long as people try to tear people down, I will speak out about it. We get the forum we deserve.

When I wrote:
"I am not trying to be difficult but! What do you want? Nice critics! If so what is the point of even showing your work?"
I mean it, it is a question neither a comment or a critic, I need to be enlighten as to the purpose of your posting, one cannot ask for only insignificant comments, any work has positive and negative aspect to it, I personally find more educative to know what I do wrong so I can do better next time. I can be a little unguarded in my comments, I was inquiring as to what you were expecting so as not to hurt your feeling, with a robust critic of your work, it is obvious that I fail.
My other comment was address to Mike Morgan, it might have been insensitive but true. Are you going to seek driving lesson from someone who does not drive? Is someone not driving in position to give advice about the operation of a motor vehicle? There are numerous great engravers on this forum, are you seeking advice from a self-proclaim complete novice, or from a more mature practitioners? Mike_Morgan said about your work "it look very good" do you think that you did learn anything of value with this "critic", is it going to help you improve in any way? Is it the place of a complete novice to judge your work?
One need to be aware of one’s own qualification, as a novice on any subject I would not see myself as qualify to give my opinion about someone else work, not out of timidity but because I know of my limited ability. As a novices I know that my opinion is irrelevant not because I lack the intelligence but because I lack the knowledge for a pertinent critic, I would leave that task to other more qualify than myself and maybe take advantage of it to improve my own work.

I did not insult you, I did not tear down your work, as I did not even comment about it. You are free to interpret my comments and postings as you will, of course but I am not responsible for your analysis and assumptions, just for what I write.

atexascowboy2011 · Dec 2, 2016

Mark,
Your receiver is NOT the place to TRY out the design. PRACTICE on practice plates first until you have a pattern down. This is not a skill to learn in days or weeks. Take your time, learn to DRAW a good sketch first, then cut it on practice plates and then show those .

Tim Wells · Dec 2, 2016

What the guy above me said.

Leave that gun alone for a while. Once you get more practice after you've figured out design better you can always come back to the gun. Plus, you can always buy a new floor plate. In other words don't haul off and cut a design to try and match what you did on the floor plate, make a design that shows your progress after a few months or so and maybe cut that and then match a new floor plate to THAT design.

A lots of us cut something too early like a gun or knife, I know I did and nobody will ever see that thing either, hehehe. Keep practicing and you'll do fine in short order. And remember: Some people talk because they have something to say, and some talk because they have to say something. Cheers.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

Brian Marshall said:
Go to the FEGA website. I think that they still have the other smaller/earlier versions of books by Ron Smith?

A large part of the content of these is similar and/or the same and they are more "economical"....

Brian

Thanks, I will check there.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

Thierry Duguet said:
When I wrote:
"I am not trying to be difficult but! What do you want? Nice critics! If so what is the point of even showing your work?"
I mean it, it is a question neither a comment or a critic, I need to be enlighten as to the purpose of your posting, one cannot ask for only insignificant comments, any work has positive and negative aspect to it, I personally find more educative to know what I do wrong so I can do better next time. I can be a little unguarded in my comments, I was inquiring as to what you were expecting so as not to hurt your feeling, with a robust critic of your work, it is obvious that I fail.
My other comment was address to Mike Morgan, it might have been insensitive but true. Are you going to seek driving lesson from someone who does not drive? Is someone not driving in position to give advice about the operation of a motor vehicle? There are numerous great engravers on this forum, are you seeking advice from a self-proclaim complete novice, or from a more mature practitioners? Mike_Morgan said about your work "it look very good" do you think that you did learn anything of value with this "critic", is it going to help you improve in any way? Is it the place of a complete novice to judge your work?
One need to be aware of one’s own qualification, as a novice on any subject I would not see myself as qualify to give my opinion about someone else work, not out of timidity but because I know of my limited ability. As a novices I know that my opinion is irrelevant not because I lack the intelligence but because I lack the knowledge for a pertinent critic, I would leave that task to other more qualify than myself and maybe take advantage of it to improve my own work.

I did not insult you, I did not tear down your work, as I did not even comment about it. You are free to interpret my comments and postings as you will, of course but I am not responsible for your analysis and assumptions, just for what I write.

Hi Thierry, It was Mnavaro whos quote you said about "the blind leading A one eyed guy with..." but I know who you meant. He was not critiquing my work, he merely said he liked it. Fine. I have lots of people around me that do not know how to engrave that said they like my engraving. Mnavaro said he was a novice so I take what he said for what it's worth. I have gotten seven other compliments about that work that people did not want to post out right, I wonder why they chose to do it behind the scenes. I am not getting validation from them because I do not know if they are qualified to judge.

I should give you some background, I am 56 years old, I went to the University of Alaska Fairbanks, enrolled in their fine arts program where daily critique is bread and butter (so I know what critique is). I began making knives 16 years ago and started teaching knife making with the university of Alaska and the Tanana Valley Folk School 8 years ago. I'm just trying to show you I have a small grasp of what it takes to teach someone something (without ruffling feathers).

I was not the only one here who took what you said as a derogatory remark so it must have some validity.

I have taught hundreds of people to make knives, and corrected thousands of mistakes without making people feel bad about the work they have done. Any intelligent person (as you are) can make their point without belittling other people.

I have said what I am going to about this subject, don't think it needs any more.

If you would like to help me become a better engraver, I would like you to do that. Be brutally honest, I expect that, but please try to be nice about it. That's what I meant in my original post.

Thank you, Mark

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

atexascowboy2011 said:
Mark,
Your receiver is NOT the place to TRY out the design. PRACTICE on practice plates first until you have a pattern down. This is not a skill to learn in days or weeks. Take your time, learn to DRAW a good sketch first, then cut it on practice plates and then show those .

Thank you, I will do that.

Mark Knapp · Dec 2, 2016

Tim Wells said:
What the guy above me said.

Leave that gun alone for a while. Once you get more practice after you've figured out design better you can always come back to the gun. Plus, you can always buy a new floor plate. In other words don't haul off and cut a design to try and match what you did on the floor plate, make a design that shows your progress after a few months or so and maybe cut that and then match a new floor plate to THAT design.

A lots of us cut something too early like a gun or knife, I know I did and nobody will ever see that thing either, hehehe. Keep practicing and you'll do fine in short order. And remember: Some people talk because they have something to say, and some talk because they have to say something. Cheers.

Good advise, thank you. I am not going to hide my floor plate though. I'm going to look at it for years. Like I do my first knife

Tim Wells · Dec 3, 2016

Mark Knapp said:
Good advise, thank you. I am not going to hide my floor plate though. I'm going to look at it for years. Like I do my first knife

Well, that's why I've kept the revolver I started on as a reminder and it don't look near as good as your plate. Thought about melting it down with a cutting torch several times though. I may have a somewhat water damaged copy of Ron's last book around here someplace. The AC unit started dripping on it and when I came out the next day half the pages were stuck together at one corner once it dried. Anyway, I think I eventually pried them apart so it is warped but readable and it's yours if you can use it.

pilkguns · Dec 3, 2016

I've read through this thread back and forth and I don't see that Thierry said anything to be be upset about. He made neutral truthful statements in a humorous way.

If someone tells me that they don't know what they are doing and ask for critique then that someone should expect to have negative things said to them. Thierry didn't say anything negative so I really don't understand the hubbub. But to get on with some positive help, you said you can't afford instruction, and are looking for something free. May I suggest you read this forum? There are LOTS of threads on this forum about scroll design and theory. There are LOTS of very good critiques. I myself have written a number of them with "circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back" explaining good, better and best possibilities as well as pointing out wrong ones.

There are many folks I could point to who learned their engravings chops here on this forum while living in obscure geological locations far removed from those who of us counseled them digitally. Andrew Biggs is probably the most famous of these that come to mind.

PS: I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night but I was in the same beginners class with John B about a 100 years ago taught by Neil Hartliep and I have taught engraving at multiple locations and events over the last 25 years including being the senior instructor at GRS for most of the 14 years I taught there.

Mark Knapp · Dec 3, 2016

Tim Wells said:
Well, that's why I've kept the revolver I started on as a reminder and it don't look near as good as your plate. Thought about melting it down with a cutting torch several times though. I may have a somewhat water damaged copy of Ron's last book around here someplace. The AC unit started dripping on it and when I came out the next day half the pages were stuck together at one corner once it dried. Anyway, I think I eventually pried them apart so it is warped but readable and it's yours if you can use it.

Oh Boy, that sounds so generous. What can I do for you, I mean besides paying for the postage? And would like like something for the book.

Mark Knapp · Dec 3, 2016

pilkguns said:
I've read through this thread back and forth and I don't see that Thierry said anything to be be upset about. He made neutral truthful statements in a humorous way.

If someone tells me that they don't know what they are doing and ask for critique then that someone should expect to have negative things said to them. Thierry didn't say anything negative so I really don't understand the hubbub. But to get on with some positive help, you said you can't afford instruction, and are looking for something free. May I suggest you read this forum? There are LOTS of threads on this forum about scroll design and theory. There are LOTS of very good critiques. I myself have written a number of them with "circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back" explaining good, better and best possibilities as well as pointing out wrong ones.

There are many folks I could point to who learned their engravings chops here on this forum while living in obscure geological locations far removed from those who of us counseled them digitally. Andrew Biggs is probably the most famous of these that come to mind.

PS: I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night but I was in the same beginners class with John B about a 100 years ago taught by Neil Hartliep and I have taught engraving at multiple locations and events over the last 25 years including being the senior instructor at GRS for most of the 14 years I taught there.

Thank you pilkguns, I'm sorry I don't know your name. It's true that things said for humor can be mistaken for just plane being mean if you don't use the emojis. It could be that I took it the wrong way. Many other people here took it the same way I did. If it was an insult to Mnavarro and I , it was not the worst one I have ever gotten and will not be the last. No biggie. Thierry did ask me what I am looking for, so I told him. I'm looking for constructive critique. Critique the way I learned it is civil, not derogatory. He did not give me constructive critique. If he had given me what you talk about in your post, I am a happy man. Thanks again.

PS, I am not necessarily looking for only free advise, I will take what free advise I can get and I will pay for what I need to.

gcleaker · Dec 3, 2016

I like your work. Who doesn't want to show their work off. I think you've done well. But once again I'm not a judge I just know what I like looking at. Keep up the effort have a great day. Skill comes from diligence.

Update on my floor plate

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