On Line Gun Engraving Example Details, Holt's Auctions - English Fine Scroll Example

Crossbolt

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Many of you may be aware of this resource but I thought I'd post it for those who aren't.
Holt's Auctioneers in the UK provide rather good photographs with their periodic on line auctions (at least for their higher end classical auctions as oppossed to their sealed bid lower end auction). They're located here:

http://www.holtsauctioneers.com/index.html

Attached is an interesting sidelock example of what you can see using their photography from a 1930's Purdey:

The second image is of the same gun's top strap. The magnifications are different but the top strap ends up looking a little different. Is it just the magnification or did sometone else do this work? Either way it reveals interesting details of how the English Fine Scroll was cut; it looks rather coarse by more distant viewing and modern standards.

As I said, I thought I'd pass on the link for those not aware of it.

Jeremy
 

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Crossbolt

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At that age I'm certain it was hand done but my first thought on seeing it under magnifcation was chisel and hammer as AliAtyabi responded; I don't think anything other than hand push or hammer/chisel was available at the time. What particularly struck me about that example, given that it is a high end Purdey, is that I've seen smoother cuts on much lower end, "provincial" guns of identical if not earlier age. Of course I seen much, much coarser as well. Admittedly the magnification is rather high and one doesn't see it with the naked eye but I find it interesting nevertheless.
Jeremy
 

AliAtiyabi

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At that age I'm certain it was hand done but my first thought on seeing it under magnifcation was chisel and hammer as AliAtyabi responded; I don't think anything other than hand push or hammer/chisel was available at the time. What particularly struck me about that example, given that it is a high end Purdey, is that I've seen smoother cuts on much lower end, "provincial" guns of identical if not earlier age. Of course I seen much, much coarser as well. Admittedly the magnification is rather high and one doesn't see it with the naked eye but I find it interesting nevertheless.
Jeremy

The scrolls are not neat which shows the engraver was not professional. The reason I thought it might be done by hammer and chisel was the scrolls but engraving the roses by chisel and hammer is rather more difficult.
 

Crossbolt

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The scrolls are not neat which shows the engraver was not professional. The reason I thought it might be done by hammer and chisel was the scrolls but engraving the roses by chisel and hammer is rather more difficult.

I would not be surprised if there were several engraver's work on the gun. One doing the "roses", one doing the majority of the scrollwork and one (the apprentice working on his first piece with a hammer and chisel? :) ) working on the top strap.

Jeremy
 

AliAtiyabi

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I would not be surprised if there were several engraver's work on the gun. One doing the "roses", one doing the majority of the scrollwork and one (the apprentice working on his first piece with a hammer and chisel? :) ) working on the top strap.

Jeremy

This is exactly came to my mind Jeremy since some parts of the roses are neat. It is not possible that the same person did such neat lines on the roses do the scrolls. The other point is the layout and pattern which is done by a professional person.
 

Crossbolt

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There is one other possibility which occurred to me that would explain the poor state of the "Safe" engraving as well.
I wonder if the top strap was re-engraved at a later stage to remove blemishes but wasn't done to the same standard.
Jeremy
 

Roger Bleile

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London guns of this vintage were mostly engraved with a burin. These guns were engraved prior to hardening and the engraving is very shallow. Standard house pattern guns were engraved by several engravers at the same time. The most experienced usually did the action and sideplates. London engraving shops like Jack Sumner's or Kell's were expected to complete a full coverage, house pattern gun in about three days. Obviously, one engraver could not do the whole gun and all associated parts by himself in that time. In the picture below, Harry Kell is engraving an action with a burin. for speed, he doesn't put the work in a vise. Rather he holds it against a bench peg.
 

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AliAtiyabi

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There is one other possibility which occurred to me that would explain the poor state of the "Safe" engraving as well.
I wonder if the top strap was re-engraved at a later stage to remove blemishes but wasn't done to the same standard.
Jeremy

Regarding the interval time I do not agree since the layout seems to be done in the same time I mean it has been completed in one time since it is not a simple one especially regarding the year 1930 and the coming years. Regarding the burin as Roger says I would like to draw your kind attention to the fact that some parts of the roses especially the tips of the lines are so professionally done ( lines that starts from thick to very thin and sharp end and done very clean) which controlling it by hand and burin is very difficult especially regarding the repeated lines which in one look it seems to be one step lower in quality than what is done by GRS tools or the likes.

On the whole, there is no doubt it has not been worked by one person since the performance is not the same but it can be the case that the layout/ drawings and the more sophisticated parts like the roses are done by the same person.
 
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AliAtiyabi

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I find it interesting that the photo on the right shows several slips of the graver and no effort to correct them.

Yes since some lines are thicker ( the start of the lines) where the effort for correction caused new blemishes. The same is happened on the left.
 

highveldt

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To my mind and in regard to this post subject, it should be noted what historians of the gun trade as well as present day and past day engravers have said about the role of the engravers as well as their status in the guntrade.

Firstly, let me comment on what historian say about the pay rate and status of engravers in the guntrade of the time of this gun and earlier: Division of labor in the gun trade was what made the English gun trade able to compete, and an engraver was just another laborer in the trade or the shop. The engravers pay was about mid-point of the pay scale of all the various trade craftsman as Donald Dallas has shown in his book on the history of the Purdey guns and rifles. Much work done by engravers in the UK in the 19th century was poorly done and was to fill space quickly, according to McKenzie and other well known engravers of the 20th and 21th century. Engravers were not ever paid as much as an expert actioner in the guntrade from what I can find.

The late Jack Summer famous for his Boss engraving, was indicative example of the low pay that even the best engravers made in the day, as he was pennyless in his retirement and was supported by the kindness of funds from his fellows in the guntrade.

Just recently in an article published by "Shooting Sportsman" magazine, the Godfather of Engraving, Ken Hunt, had this to say about the period of time that he apprenticed under Harry Kell:

" When I apprenticed with Harry Kell there was a team of perhaps six, eight or nine engravers. A gun would come in on Monday and it would be collected on Wednesday(following). This was only possible by using the 'chain' system (division of labor) with one of us doing the small scroll, another carving the detonating (fences), while another man did the lettering--that was Kell. The engraving done in a commercial way: quickly at a price. I would complete one gun per week and was given 58 hours to do it"

In the 1930 there was no hammer/chisel engraving work done commercially in the English gun trade from what I have found in the study of the guntrade. It was all push engraving. Keep in mind that the steel used for actions of guns until modern times was just barely steel and could be compared to today's 1010 steel. I re-engraved a 1887 Stephen Grant SLE and it was as soft as wrought iron--and was likely high grade Sweedish Iron anyway and not steel.

Ken Hunt further said in the article mentioned above that " there were two engravers working in the Kell shop with him who were in the 70's. Keeping with the tradition of piece work each man had specialized in a particular form of engraving since his apprenticeship: Jim Jones had engraved small scroll (what we today know as Fine English Scroll) and flowers since the age of 13; and Bill Smith concentrated solely on large scrolls. Harry Kell by this time come to concentrate almost entirely upon carving and inlays"

It should be no surprise that an engraver in the time frame of the subject Purdey shotgun could engrave flowers in the dark perfectly, as he had been engraving them (in the case of Bill Jones) for 62 years six days a week. I say in the dark, because I am 75 years old and I have to have a microscope to see to engrave, while engravers of the time of Kell and earlier only had eyeglasses and no further magnification.

Also please note that Hunt says a gun came in on Monday as was collected on Wednesday---It was completed in 2 1/2 days of engraving work, without the aid of vice, no high speed steel or M42 steel gravers, poor light coming in through a window, no magnification and in old, cold and sometimes damp workshops. The best that could be said of such "commercial engraving work" was that it was executed in a impressionist style and if held and examined without magnification it gave all the impression that was required of fine English Rose and Scroll scenes. But remember that was what the gunmaker was paying for the engraver to do.

Ken Hunt as Douglas Tate so well states in his Sep/Oct 2016 "Shooting Sportsman" magazine article was the person who revolutionized the engraving craft to an engraving art as we know it today.

Steve
 

Thierry Duguet

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It is likely that the lesser works were given to lesser engraver and that the master were given the custom work. It is probable that "engraver" were pay by the piece and that they were more preoccupy by the speed than by the quality of the final product. Rose and scrolls was a standard coverage, most often the receiver will be case color and the rest of the parts blue so the "quality" of the engraving will not be all that important since it will be difficult to see it.
 
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atexascowboy2011

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On IG Ken stated that the quota for each engraver was 9 guns per day to be finished (engraved) which was later reduced to 8 per day.
 

Roger Bleile

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On IG Ken stated that the quota for each engraver was 9 guns per day to be finished (engraved) which was later reduced to 8 per day.

I think that was a comment I repeated based on what Angelo Bee and Phil Grifnee told me about the Browning factory. The nine guns were grade 1, A-5 shotguns that are very lightly engraved.
 

AliAtiyabi

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Fred Henderson was one of the master engravers passed away in 2004. It seems among the tools he used in 1930 s were chisel and hammer. The following is one of his works engraved by hammer and chisel in 1930 s. The following is link which gives some more information on him. So if this is the case, therefore, what has been said by Steve quoted on behalf of Ken Hunt as " in 1930 s there was no chisel and hammer" should be more scrutinized.

http://www.flintriverknifeclub.com/news/jan_news.pdf
 

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highveldt

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Ali;

Since the original subject of the post was a Purdey shotgun and its English Fine Scroll, I was speaking of the English gun trade, in regard to the hammer and chisel not being part of techniques that was used by the their trade in the 1930's and before. I seem to recall that Ken Hunt said that he began using hammer and chisel after he left Purdey's and began working from his own shop at home. I also believe that Ken's comments on his use of hammer/chisel is within the number of posts that Sam has compiled of Ken on this BBS "Sticky Section at the top of the subjects when one enters the hand engraving section. According to Ken, he also began to use acid etching for backgrounds which I believe was not used by the guntrade that he apprenticed with .

Hammer and chisel techniques have been used for hundreds of years, in the Japanese techniques of engraving. The Japanese hammer the chisel towards the engravers eyes. As to Master Engraver Mr. Henderson, Americans have always been more apt to use craft techniques than have other craftsmen of the same craft in different cultures, as they could do this this without "a Guild " disturbance. Hence, maybe there has been a long history of hammer/chisel engraving in America---- I do not know--- for decades upon decades-- although I have seen firearms such as LC Smith, Parker and so forth with distinct chisel marks within the cuts that the engravers made and these firearms were 100 years old at least. Other cultures and societies have used the hammer and chisel techniques even in copper and precious metals for centuries.

Recent historians of the English gun trade such as Dallas and Tate, have identified that when the demand for engraving in the 18th and 19th century was greater than what could be done by the handful of firearms engravers working in London and Birmingham, the English gun trade solicited help from the copper plate letterhead and bank note engravers of the day. Those copper plate engravers were taught to push engrave in their apprenticeship and of course had developed the wrist, hand and arm strength to allow them to carry on with doing push engraving without much more effort in the soft iron and semi steel used by the gun trade. As a result the emphasis on push engraving was promoted and continued in the gun trade.

I hope this clarifies for you what I had written earlier above.

Regards;
Steve
 
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