Hand push lettering.... An excercise in frustration!!

Bluetickhound

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A couple of weeks ago I downloaded Sam's video on lettering and it is, as most of you know, fantastic! Instead of air assist though, I'm trying to do this by hand pushing and in short, I'm burning through a bunch of copper with not much to show for it. I know engraving isn't an instant gratification endeavor and two or three weeks isn't enough time but I'm making NO progress whatsoever and it's becoming frustrating.

In the sharpening video the recommendation is for a radiused heel of 10-20 degrees and a 40 degree face but that is for the Gravermach AT Sam uses... Should I be trying the same geometry with a burin (#40 tapered flat by the by...) More heel? Steeper (or shallower) face? I know having a mirror finish is essential for the brightness and the first half of my cuts are OK but coming out one of two things happen... Either it slips across the plate and I narrowly avoid stabbing myself or the graver digs in and the rest of the cut looks like dookie. I have tried going in fully on the point, rotating ever so slightly to the outside of the cut and then rotating back to the point but that really hasn't resulted in a cut that anyone would call good looking...

Any suggestions would be most appreciated!
 

Bluetickhound

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Will definitely pick that one up. The reviews are pretty good and it will probably be the least expensive investment I'll ever make in becoming an engraver! Thanks for the heads up!
 

Ron Spokovich

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The book mentioned is an excellent and economical little text for the guy/girl starting out. I think, although I could be wrong, that Meek's book also mentioned lettering. Anyway, with the book mentioned, you can't go wrong!
 

Mike_Morgan

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I concur... The Jewelry Engraving Manual is pretty old school... but an essential text!

When you're having trouble hand pushing letters, remember this advice from this guy here, that has never hand-pushed a letter in my entire life... People have been using power assisted gravers for a few decades... they hand pushed for CENTURIES!
 

Steve L S

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That book could send a beginner down a rabbit warren, especially the section on preparing gravers and sharpening them. The illustrations are very poor....as they all were in books of that vintage. The crocker jig shown is not easy to use, the modern equivalent is far easier to use . For hand push you need your sharpening act all together, much more so than for power assist. I use an acute 30 degree face on squares and flats which means the chances of busting off your tip is increased.

One of the best bits of advice I got from a goldsmith when I was learning was to get a 8x of 10x loupe and inspect the tip of your graver if you are skating all over the plate, you may have a tiny fracture which does not show up under your 2x or 2.5x magnifier and you don't yet have the experience to instantly know you have a broken tip. The problem is you don't know what you don't know.

Hardy and Bowman give a simplified but heavily shaded script alphabet which really stands out when cut. They give a flamboyant "Leonard" script alphabet also ( never heard of that one though I have been practicing calligraphy since I was twelve years old)- it doesn't look like much on the page, in fact it looks messy, but for me their "Leonard" script alone was worth the price of the book
 

Sam

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You're experiencing what I have warned about, and that is tool geometries for handpiece engraving and hand push engraving are often two different animals.

Here's a short video I made last night demonstrating lowercase letter engraving with a hand graver. It was a very quick video using the modified onglette/speitzer shape I used in another video.

You will notice the back of my graver hitting the vise pin and causing a little skid as I'm cutting the hairlines in the "a". :shock:

Hand push lowercase letter engraving
 

Bluetickhound

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That helps a lot! I think part of my problem is that I'm trying to get results that aren't really realistic to expect at this stage of my development. With the flat graver I'm using, coming close to duplicating the quality of brightness an air assist graver produces is going to be a challenge. Straight cuts I can do ok enough but crescent cuts are not turning out very well so far. I'll try the modified Onglette I made a few weeks ago and see how that goes. Thanks to all for taking the time to help!
 

Sam

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It can be done with a flat, but I think you need a longer heel. If I get a chance I'll try it. I was a hammer & chisel guy and only used hand gravers for shading and didn't cut much lettering by pushing, so I'm not the best source for that information.

In looking at the collection of antique engravings that I have, I would say most script lettering was cut with a square graver. So use whatever works best for you.
 

Bluetickhound

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It sure gives you a much greater appreciation and respect for what the older masters were able to do with basic hand tools! I'm learning every time I sit down (or stand!) at the bench and ultimately that's the point at this juncture. I'll continue to experiment a bit with different gravers and when I get something worth showing I'll post a picture.
 

diandwill

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That book could send a beginner down a rabbit warren, especially the section on preparing gravers and sharpening them. The illustrations are very poor....as they all were in books of that vintage. The crocker jig shown is not easy to use, the modern equivalent is far easier to use . For hand push you need your sharpening act all together, much more so than for power assist. I use an acute 30 degree face on squares and flats which means the chances of busting off your tip is increased.

One of the best bits of advice I got from a goldsmith when I was learning was to get a 8x of 10x loupe and inspect the tip of your graver if you are skating all over the plate, you may have a tiny fracture which does not show up under your 2x or 2.5x magnifier and you don't yet have the experience to instantly know you have a broken tip. The problem is you don't know what you don't know.

Hardy and Bowman give a simplified but heavily shaded script alphabet which really stands out when cut. They give a flamboyant "Leonard" script alphabet also ( never heard of that one though I have been practicing calligraphy since I was twelve years old)- it doesn't look like much on the page, in fact it looks messy, but for me their "Leonard" script alone was worth the price of the book

Every book has its good and bad. When I first read the Meek book, it read...draw a scroll, now cut this beautiful pattern. It wasn't until I learned more that I was able to see what it was saying.

The book I referenced shows that hand push lettering is done from both ends, and the direction to make the cuts. It has several different fonts for hand engraving, but, in the final analysis, is just another reference book. If there was a single book that had everything in it, it would be too expensive and almost impossible to move. That is why I own 2-3 dozen different books, or more, and try to glean what information I can from each one.
 

Thierry Duguet

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Hello, I do not use air assist engraving so my opinion might not be relevant but, it is my experience that one often try to remove too much material at once, it is easier to control the tool if you shave the cut little by little, rolling the tool will also make it easier to have a bright cut, it will also make the cut wider without the necessity to go deeper. My tools either chisel or echoppe/bulino always have a very shallow angle and are square.
 

Bluetickhound

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Thierry, I am also not using air assist so your words are very helpful. I have tried to roll out and shave a cut brighter but I always end up goofing it up and it's obvious that there have been multiple cuts. I will try a square graver to form the cuts and experiment with the flat graver to brighten them up just to see how it goes. Sam's video today cutting lower case letters was extremely helpful and I'n anxious to get home from work to try it myself.

On another note, I really enjoy your YouTube videos! Your work is beautiful, clean and more than anything else, educational. Thanks for taking the time to respond and for sharing your work with us!
 

Bluetickhound

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image.jpg

Just for the giggles, here's where I'm at as of tonight using the Speitzer graver (as best as I could approximate it anyway...). It's easier to control but the cuts still look ragged and lack confidence along with being too deep. I chose the letter E because it's my daughters first initial and she really wants a necklace... She may be waiting quite a while!! You can see that I tried to go back in with the tapered flat to brighten the cut but I should have left well enough alone. Believe it or not, this is way better than what I've been doing up to now so there is that.
I think if I can practice for a long while with this graver (and forget about the flat) I can get decent results. We'll see! Thanks again for all the input and advice!
 
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Sam

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screenshot_04.png

You might find it easier to cut a less rounded style as the brightcuts like the illustration are much straighter. Make the cut and break out, then go back and connect with the hairline. The rounder the letter shape the more difficult the bright cuts can be. At least that's my experience.

I partially agree with Thierry in that it's easier to make multiple cuts to achieve the wide strokes in the letter. However, when I cut brightcut script, the quality of cuts is always better if I nail it the first time as I always run the risk of having a telltale imperfection with multiple passes. In the real world it happens though, so it's something we learn to deal with.
 

monk

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as mentioned, there's a lot of vise rotation involved in your chosen style. much less needed in the style sam shows. i see chatter in your cuts. the rotation of the vise has to be smooth and perfectly controlled. also mentioned-- pin protrusion. i have a precisely cut set of pins for the thickness of each plate that i work on. when a finger is pulled over the plate, the pin should never protrude much above the plate surface. i also find vaule in rounding the pin tops a bit. if not rounded, they can impart nasties to your hands.
 

silverchip

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I do a lot of push engraving and yes the geometry is different. With carbide gravers(flat) I use a 25* heel and a 35* face angles. These are what I taught myself to use bright cutting silver. Finding the correct heel length for you is important and the heel angle might be different for you too. Just play around with the angle and length until you can control it with confidence. Polish your heels well so it will cut better too.
 
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