Master engraver?

Oh, and btw, in that restaurant I remember you trying to order green beans and the waitress looking at you as if you were from another planet as she couldn't understand your accent.

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Was that the same waitress that asked me if I wanted cream on my dessert to which I answered, yes please. She then proceeded to shake a can and spray some chemical white stuff over the strawberries. You and I cracked up because the can had a warning on it that it may contain traces of a dairy product

sam said:

Now this isn't going to happen in my forum :no:

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Get a rope!

Im no master, but im working hard everday learning from the best, taken one on one classes, one day master engraver one day, currently in Emporia gonna start my advanced bulino class tomorrow, but what i would really like what motivates me to go further is to one day be in the American Engravers book, dont know why that means so much to me, but it does seeing everyones wonderfull work, good night yall gonna have some fun this week.

GunEngraver.com Guns, Knives & More

Andrew Biggs said:

Was that the same waitress that asked me if I wanted cream on my dessert to which I answered, yes please. She then proceeded to shake a can and spray some chemical white stuff over the strawberries. You and I cracked up because the can had a warning on it that it may contain traces of a dairy product

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Yup, sure was! The steaks were great though!

This Master Engraver title is difficult though because there are no set boundaries as such. Just say, for example, the Hand Engravers Association in the UK decided to give accreditation. Where does it start? Do you 'grandparent' existing members as masters even though they might not be that good. And then what of someone who's not a member who is a fantastic engraver, are they not entitled to call themselves "master" because a self appointed body says not? See how things can become a bit muddy?

However, there has to be a start (and yes the start can take decades not weeks) and I think FEGA could be onto something but the level of excellence needs to be high and not just handed to a professional engraver who can knock out the practice plate if say all the scrolls have doglegs or the animals look cartoon like. But what happens if the people judging an application aren't the best of the best? It's incredibly difficult and that's why I say these things take time. Due to tools and microscopes and the likes of the 2 engraving forums, as well as the efforts GRS have made with its training school, the standard of American engraving has gone through the roof compared to 20 years ago.

This is just a thought so I hope people don't get hot under the collar, and it's meant as a start point for discussion but maybe FEGA could consider say a 3 tier program? The applicant could start early on in their engraving career with the first stage which demonstrates they have grasped the basics.

This would then move on to having to show a grasp of form and design as well as showing a progression in the work until the engraver shows an acceptable commercial standard that a customer should expect and could be awarded the journeyman/professional level.

The final stage would be "master" where the applicant would have to demonstrate either a very high quality of professional work over a number of years or produce their masterpiece, not a practice plate. The practice plate thing is all well and good as a test piece for the professional level of firearms engraving. But if you want to be the bench mark of all metal engraving and bring in other fields there has to be some leeway here. A fantastic copper plate or silver flatware engraver isn't going to be able to necessarily engrave a steel plate although they might be grand masters in their particular field.

I'm not saying the title 'master engraver' should only go to an elite but it should be of a higher standard above the professional level but easily attainable by those who have put in the effort. I see it then as being a standard to which the beginning engraver can aspire to if they wish. And FEGA, if they're smart, can break it down into different areas of expertise - firearms, general engraving, silver, jewellery, western bright cut, to name but a few. It would offer the chance for an engraver to gain some sort of recognition by a professional body all under the FEGA umbrella.

As I say, these are just some ideas bouncing around in my head and it would be interesting to hear what others think on the subject.

You are right Marcus, it is and was a difficult thing. When FEGA was founded by a small group of gun engravers, the subject of other forms of engraving were discussed and it was decided that other engraving genre would be welcomed but that FEGA would be primarily dedicated to firearms engraving and is so stipulated in the articles of incorporation.

Getting a multi-faceted organization up and running is very difficult, as Jason found out, and FEGA was lucky to stick to one so that there were not so many directions being espoused as to make a consensus impossible.

FEGA is strongly founded and it is now much easier to encompass more facets of the engraving world.

Getting to the stage of "FEGA Master Engraver" was in itself a long and rocky process but has made good progress. I am sure there will be many more changes needed in the future but I feel it is on the right path.

The internet has made such a huge impact on us as to be beyond description, at least by me.

Marcus Hunt said:

...maybe FEGA could consider say a 3 tier program?

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I think that's one of the best ideas I've heard so far.

I kind of like the idea of a three tier system, Marcus.

With the quality of engraving being done by FEGA members, the Master's program is only going to get better and better. I hope you will pursue it!

sam said:

Maybe tarring and feathering by a vigilante group?
Nope, nothing can be done and doesn't really need to be done. This person will only fool a very few people and the rest will just roll their eyes.

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I'd be all for that!!!!!LOL

I would probably have never dug out the binder, but for Andrews comments.

I'd pretty much forgotten those days, if it hadn't been for Andrews diatribe. And his sore spot regarding Jason...

But now that I have and have read through it, wow! There are about 50 pages. (The scariest part, to me, was how long ago this was!!!)

It was to have been called "The International Association of Engraving Arts".... a little long in my opinion, but that was what the group voted on.

There were quite a few people who frequent or reside on this forum involved in the attempt to put it together and get it up and running.

Lots of time invested. Lots of arguments and compromises made. Some seriously good ideas proposed.

Even got as far as putting together a board of directors - of which I would have been part. Completely forgot about that. Also forgot that I'd bought and contributed the url for the website...

This is why Andrew and I have completely different recollections... my involvement and his came from different sides of the fence.


Brian


All said and done, at that particular time in the engraving world (and from more than just my view) an organization like what we were proposing would have have filled a need that FEGA was not responding to. It had plenty of support - but for whatever combination of reasons it failed to make it into reality.

It was kinda sad to read through... all that time and all those dreams

Perhaps, for the international aspirants, They could apply and, at some point down the road (not too far) Fega could make a trip to their countries (whenever feasible) and grade them om their masterpieces their. It would eliminate trying to take firearms internationally. Whenever possible it could be a central location, sort of a mini Las Vegas.

Just a thought!

I do like the tier three idea. I will never be master, night not even qualify for the second tier because my work output is so different from traditional scroll and leaf, but if not for engraving, I would not be where I am today!.

diandwill said:

I will never be master, night not even qualify for the second tier because my work output is so different from traditional scroll and leaf, but if not for engraving, I would not be where I am today!.

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That's one of the things I was getting at. Depending on what you engrave depends on what style you use and some engravers will never engrave a scroll. However, that being said, a master engraver should be able to engrave most things and styles within their particular medium. Where gun engravers are concerned, if you can crack it and get all the different styles and techniques under your belt you can engrave most things. Okay, something like western bright cut might need a bit of tweaking but I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's probably easier for a gun engraver to learn bright cut than vice versa. So our skills are transferable onto jewellery, watches, motorcycles, silverware, all sorts of things. And odd convex shapes won't phase us either.

Marcus Hunt said:

That's one of the things I was getting at. Depending on what you engrave depends on what style you use and some engravers will never engrave a scroll. However, that being said, a master engraver should be able to engrave most things and styles within their particular medium. Where gun engravers are concerned, if you can crack it and get all the different styles and techniques under your belt you can engrave most things. Okay, something like western bright cut might need a bit of tweaking but I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's probably easier for a gun engraver to learn bright cut than vice versa. So our skills are transferable onto jewellery, watches, motorcycles, silverware, all sorts of things. And odd convex shapes won't phase us either.

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I do engrave some scroll, and I do engrave some western bright cut, and I do some bulino, but my engraving is confined almost exclusively to jewelry. I don't have an FFL and probably won't ever get one.I mostly work on earrings, bracelets, belt buckles etc. and engrave more Celtic designs than almost anything else. I do a lot of pierced and sculpted pieces, just very small canvases.

diandwill said:

I do engrave some scroll, and I do engrave some western bright cut, and I do some bulino, but my engraving is confined almost exclusively to jewelry. I don't have an FFL and probably won't ever get one.I mostly work on earrings, bracelets, belt buckles etc. and engrave more Celtic designs than almost anything else. I do a lot of pierced and sculpted pieces, just very small canvases.

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My original point, exactly! FEGA shouldn't lose its history and it should always be recognised as being a firearms engravers' guild but, I seriously think they'll be missing a trick if they just stick purely with firearms engraving. But things can't and won't change overnight. My thoughts were about the future but Brian shows just how difficult getting a new guild off the ground so to piggyback something on an existing organisation would be a lot easier so long as the parent organisation (FEGA) still maintains it's identity.

Again, just a thought.... but it's good to see people starting to think

I would support a three-tier system.
I think that's a good idea. An apprentice, journeyman, master tiered certificate system that actually means something is ok with me.

Thanks,
Weldon

Weldon47 said:

I would support a three-tier system.
I think that's a good idea. An apprentice, journeyman, master tiered certificate system that actually means something is ok with me.

Thanks,
Weldon

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Probably in the US it would be beginner, but showing a level of proficiency. professional, one who is capable at a higher standard whether working in the trade or not, and then Master, one who has been judged by other Masters to show the quality needed to be part of their level, no matter the medium, or some such connotation. Without apprenticeship programs, the others would be hard to justify, excepting Master, there you kind of know it when you see it.

To earn the master goldsmith degree, you are given a series of tasks, all of which are common in the jewelry industry, and you have to perform them within a given amount of time and to a specified standard of quality, and I believe in front of a panel. I don't know how that would work here, many of the firearm engravers take months...just for the engraving. There would need to be meals sent in! (just a joke there)

I like that idea very much, of course I am but a beginner in the field and hold high respect for all the Master Engravers and professional engravers. But the 3 tier certificate would be easier for a beginner to drive for.

just my two cents worth

I'd pretty much forgotten those days, if it hadn't been for Andrews diatribe. And his sore spot regarding Jason...

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Another myth you are perpetuating, Brian. There is, and never has been, a sore spot regarding Jason because there was no need to feel that way both then and now. Our e-mails at the time were congenial and based around other things.......you really need to get over what ever bee you have buzzing around in your head.

The FEGA Master program started with nothing. Just an idea and it has evolved from there. There were no guidelines or manuals on any of this stuff so it was all done on a wing and a prayer. It started out thirty years ago as a Professional status then went to Certified Professional and has ended up being the FEGA Master Engraver program. Pretty damn good really and a credit to FEGA and its membership as the test of time is the hardest test of all.

The interesting thing is that although the criteria has changed to actually apply for it.............the judging guidelines have changed very little.

Another criteria change that was made a few years ago was the need for an FFL license. This was dropped so engravers could engrave their own personal guns and submit them for judging without breaking any laws. I can think of one current Master that has done exactly that and he doesn't have an FFL licence. So the bottom line now is than any member, professional or hobbyist can now apply because there are no criteria barriers any more. So the criteria has been simplified and the process made easier.

At the end of the day it still boils down to the actual engraving presented which has to be of a very high standard………and it is!!!! The applicants have to present two engraved guns and can also submit anything else that they like to reinforce their work. Because a lot of the applicants submit client guns they don’t always have things like lettering or gold inlays so they can be presented on a separate plate to show their skill in this area. Over the years the standard of work is getting higher and higher as it should.

International applicants are held to the same standards and the only difference is that they can submit photos of their work. This is in recognition of how hard and expensive it has become to ship guns around the world.

A three tier system would be incredibly hard and complicated to implement because most of the membership is self employed, retired hobbyist, or work full time in unrelated fields. We don’t have an apprentice system to track from apprentice, journeyman and master. And I’m not sure what the purpose would be or what exactly it would achieve if we did implement it. FEGA is a voluntary organisation and as such no one works full time on any of this. We only meet once a year at the annual show.

The system we have now is pretty damn good. But far from perfect as no system ever is or ever will be……………..having said that, there is always room for improvement and evolution over time. And that’s the way it should be. I do see a day when people will be able to submit knives or other items as their main entries. When that day is is anybodies guess

The FEGA Master Engraver program is still something to strive for and obtainable for the members that really want and desire it. The criteria is to submit a couple of guns and a plate with whatever is missing from the guns. The starting point is to get good at engraving, buy a couple of guns and engrave and submit them. It’s not easy and it’s incredibly time consuming and hard work……….but that is the whole point


Cheers
Andrew

Hi folks, interesting conversation.