Graver recipes

Memorymaker said:

First, I want to greatly thank Sam and JJ for sharing info with a newbie.

Second ....

Wow ......... Monk ......... Thank you for your demeaning attitude. Maybe others would like to know some of the things I asked too ....... Now I understand why they haven't been asked.

I just noticed that there seemed to be different graver geometries that aren't listed in many places. I was just wondering what people used. I didn't know I was a question that was forbidden.

I'm part of a bunch of tackle making, fishing, Rod making, kayaking etc forums. I have the best of equipment in all of those areas and I have learned a lot and shared a lot on them. I guess I'm use to people welcoming newbies and openly and everyone willingly sharing their expertise with others. I know I learn a lot from everyone I meet both newbies and oldies.

I'm not use to being talked down to ......... My expertise is in senior technical design and management of large telecommunications and video communications systems and I would never talk down to someone that did not have my level of experience in that way.

Don't worry .......... I won't ask you to share so valuable expertise again.

I have to tell you that I got more than a few of emails from others that just lurk instead of contributing or asking questions because the high and mighty attitude of some the last time I had the audacity to ask for more in depth explanations. Maybe it's something you may want to think about ....... Or not.

Please forgive me for asking a question ......... I won't make that mistake again.

I will join the legions of lurkers and get my education from videos, books and personalized professional instruction.

Again .......... Many thanks to Sam and JJ.

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my words weren't intended to be demeaning in any way. if you took them to be such, i cant say much about that. as far as not asking any more questions, well that's kind of self-defeating.

Monk, we and you have offered the olive branch. If he's off having a paddy fit, fine! All I know is a couple of years ago I got really peed off at people that would just come in and ask to be spoon-fed information whilst making no effort to look for stuff which had been discussed on the forum many times before. These people are like leeches, sucking the energy out of you. I am only too happy to help, give advice and critique if a) what I have to say is different to what's been said before and b) if I think what I have to say might make a difference to that person. My caveat nowadays however, is I have to see that that person is making an effort first and foremost. Lurkers who suddenly want info can take a hike as far as I'm concerned; you either contribute to the forum or you can get lost in my book, simples!

After a discussion at a Grand Masters weekend, Sam took it upon himself to start this fantastic forum. It hasn't been without controversy in the early days and in fact, for those who don't know the history, Sam shut it down for a while because he was fed up with tool wars and the like. When he reinstated it, for which we were all thankful, we all agreed to play by his rules. He allows lively debate but won't let it get to aggravation levels - he fires a warning shot across the bows! So when you reply to something and someone takes umbrage at your response rather than talking it out, my response is try to salvage the situation and if there's no reply "Sod 'em!"

Monk, forums are forums, not everyone is always going to agree with everyone else. I, and lots of others, know your style of talking and we know you would never set out to talk down to someone. But as I said, one of the dangers of this medium is it's open to misinterpretation. Don't feel bad, mate, the problem is Memorymaker's if he won't talk things through.

Marcus Hunt said:

Monk, we and you have offered the olive branch. If he's off having a paddy fit, fine! All I know is a couple of years ago I got really peed off at people that would just come in and ask to be spoon-fed information whilst making no effort to look for stuff which had been discussed on the forum many times before. These people are like leeches, sucking the energy out of you. I am only too happy to help, give advice and critique if a) what I have to say is different to what's been said before and b) if I think what I have to say might make a difference to that person. My caveat nowadays however, is I have to see that that person is making an effort first and foremost. Lurkers who suddenly want info can take a hike as far as I'm concerned; you either contribute to the forum or you can get lost in my book, simples!

After a discussion at a Grand Masters weekend, Sam took it upon himself to start this fantastic forum. It hasn't been without controversy in the early days and in fact, for those who don't know the history, Sam shut it down for a while because he was fed up with tool wars and the like. When he reinstated it, for which we were all thankful, we all agreed to play by his rules. He allows lively debate but won't let it get to aggravation levels - he fires a warning shot across the bows! So when you reply to something and someone takes umbrage at your response rather than talking it out, my response is try to salvage the situation and if there's no reply "Sod 'em!"

Monk, forums are forums, not everyone is always going to agree with everyone else. I, and lots of others, know your style of talking and we know you would never set out to talk down to someone. But as I said, one of the dangers of this medium is it's open to misinterpretation. Don't feel bad, mate, the problem is Memorymaker's if he won't talk things through.

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spoon-fed?? when you, myself, and many, many others learned to fiddle with this beautiful art, there was no "spoon". just dogged determination. i truly "gave up" many a time. i just quit ! but the next day, the frustration was gone. replaced with determination.

Everyone can't do what you do and I only want to learn for the amateur level especially since I can't draw worth a lick.

I really appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge. I am trying to gather information and I do look up things on this site and others. Thanks also for the additional info too.

However, the use of words especially with quotations can come off as intimidating and I'm not the only one that feels that way. I'm just letting you know how people feel. There are those that don't ask questions anymore because they feel that way. ....... Just saying.

As far as asking before looking or trying, I have spent the money for the equipment and education. I have a GRS Gravermax, dual angle sharpener, complete set of Lindsay's templates and diamond stones, GRS Powerhone with all of the disks and the ceramic disk, several hand pieces including the 901, the heavy duty one and the 701 and about 35 gravers. That is in addition to a complete rotary graver set up with multiple rotary gravers and hundreds of bits etc. I have several microscopes including a Nikon, Meiji emz5 and 2 more. I have a table and lighting setup. I have about 40 hours of DVDs including Sam's sharpening, the Bolino dvd by Christian DeCamillis, and the complete set of the Art of Handengraving etc ....... As well as a couple of more that I ordered this weekend. I also plan to take classes with J J this fall/winter ....... So when I ask questions, it's not because I'm unprepared or haven't looked. It's because I would like to understand and benefit from the expertise of the masters.

Just so you can understand a little about me,
My background is in engineering, implementation and management of very large telecommunications and video communications systems. I was a technical consultant for AT&T years ago and did a bunch of work with advanced technologies. The way I learn is to gather as much information and equipment as I can before I begin actually doing something. That's just how I do it because I want to dive into it when I'm ready and I hate to have to stop because I don't have the right equipment or knowledge.

That's how I did it with Rod Building, lure building and airbrushing and now engraving. I usually buy different equipment for something, use what I like and sell the rest. That way I have the best for me.

Some days the way things read may sound intimidating to beginners. They're not meant to be. We are not all teachers trained in a certain way to put things across in a particular manner. What you have to do is understand a particular style of someone's writing. Monk is a direct talker but I've never had the feeling that there's any malice in what he says. The important thing is you're back and not lurking so let's move on.

There is no magic formula regarding graver sharpening. There are a few general geometries which work but for the most part find out what works best for you. You can only do that by experimentation. I used to hand sharpen so there was no given geometry but for the vast majority of my work I basically use 2 gravers the 90º and the 115º. I find a 120º a bit too wide but others don't. The important thing is to grasp the concepts of your sharpening fixture and then you can experiment to your hearts delight. The important thing is, when you find something you're comfortable with and that works for you, stick with it.

Thank you Marcus .........thats exactly the information I was looking for. JJ also sent me all of the graver geometries he uses. I will start with the basics and try the others as I go.

I'm artistically challenged so I know I will never achieve the expertise you guys do everyday but it is great to be able to get the perspective of the masters.

So much of the "geometries" we use are quite personal. When I first started, everyone said to begin with a 90 degree graver. So I did and had moderate success. Then I read that Sam liked a 120 degree and I found that very comfortable. But, I never was totally comfortable with the standard 90 degree. So I decided to experiment and made a 100 degree and WOW, all of a sudden I could cut what everyone was talking about with far greater ease. Why should a simple 10 degree change make such a difference, I'll never know. But to this day I almost never use a 90 degree and use my 100 and 120's for the majority of my cutting. So what I'm saying is play around a bit, you may find a geometry that fits you cutting style perfectly.

Memorymaker said:

Thank you Marcus .........thats exactly the information I was looking for. JJ also sent me all of the graver geometries he uses. I will start with the basics and try the others as I go.

I'm artistically challenged so I know I will never achieve the expertise you guys do everyday but it is great to be able to get the perspective of the masters.

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this may seem somewhat confusing, but, learning the artistic side of things is just as important, if not moreso, than all the toys we all seem to gravitate to. a book by lee griffiths, or shaun didyoung, starts one off in the simplest possible terms of learning to draw. 3 or 4 simple, short lines-- properly arranged, will make most any scroll design you'd want to do. looking at the much more complex designs can be, and is bewildering.

Monk ....... I fully agree ....... I got the book Drawing for the Right Side of the Brain that was suggested in one of the Videos and Mr Meeks book The Art of Engraving so I will be trying but artistic drawing has not been my strongest abilities ......... That's why I probably be just a rank amateur.

I'll look into those books too.

Thanks much.

Memorymaker said:

I will be trying but artistic drawing has not been my strongest abilities ......... That's why I probably be just a rank amateur.

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But you don't have to be a rank amateur... I would not be so quick to surrender that you'll never have the artistic skills.

Drawing, like any other discipline, requires spending time doing it. And with that time invested, you can draw as well as the the next guy that puts in the time. Now it's entirely possible that you don't enjoy drawing, which is why you have not developed the skills. I'll admit that it's pretty hard to draw when you're not good at it. It's frustrating and nobody likes being bad at things.

When I was around 43, I was in a pretty bad motorcycle accident... without the gory details, it was a life changing moment, because I nearly died. In the recovery phase, I had to relearn a lot of things that I was formerly REALLY good at. And man, it's just horrible being bad at something that was so easy for me in the past.

But, as I overcame the challenges, the unbridled joy from getting "good" at something once again, was a fantastic feeling. I also realized that in my life prior to that, I tended to avoid things I was bad at. I stuck to things where I already had an aptitude, and that severely limited me. If I was bad at something, I moved on until I found something I was good at, and I focused on that. I usually took the easy way out, basically.

Since the accident, I have made a point of being bad at things. I learned how to THRIVE in "the bad zone". I have found that by working at something I am bad at, then I find great enjoyment in overcoming the issues, and getting GOOD at it. Growth in life comes when you dare to do something REALLY poorly until you can master it. It's great to do things you're good at... people compliment you... they offer high praise... lots of "feel good" moments! Being bad at something and doing it anyway requires pretty thick skin, and a fair amount of bravery.

Instead of saying "I'm bad at it"... say... "I need to work on it", then work on it! Yep, it's frustrating as all get out to be terrible at something.

You can be a professional engraver if you want to be... or you can be a rank amateur... the choice is entirely yours to make.

Monk ......l thanks for the info ...... I just ordered Lee's book and DVDs

Mike ........ I'm always willing to learn and get better at things I need work on ......... I'll definitely try. Thanks for the encouragement and the faith in me

I see a large list of good equipment, good job, what you need on that list to help everything come together is an engraving class, or one on one instruction. Have you considered that?

GunEngraver.com Guns, Knives & More

dlilazteca said:

I see a large list of good equipment, good job, what you need on that list to help everything come together is an engraving class, or one on one instruction. Have you considered that?

GunEngraver.com Guns, Knives & More

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Yes definitely ......... I mentioned in that post that I would be taking classes with JJ this fall/winter

Memorymaker said:

Monk ....... I fully agree ....... I got the book Drawing for the Right Side of the Brain that was suggested in one of the Videos and Mr Meeks book The Art of Engraving so I will be trying but artistic drawing has not been my strongest abilities ......... That's why I probably be just a rank amateur.

I'll look into those books too.

Thanks much.

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the meeks book was biblical at the time it was printed. it was the first ever to show the disciplines required to engrave on a gun. it remains, to me, a valuable book on the subject. i'm not tryin to spend yer money,, but the 2 books i mentioned teach one how to create (easily) a pleasant looking scroll. also is shown how to fit scroll into shapes.

Thanks Monk .......... You're not spending my money ........ You're helping me make wise investments.

I bought Lee's book and DVD yesterday and will check out the other one when I'm finished with this one. Thanks for your suggestions.

Memorymaker said:

Thanks Monk .......... You're not spending my money ........ You're helping me make wise investments.

I bought Lee's book and DVD yesterday and will check out the other one when I'm finished with this one. Thanks for your suggestions.

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that book makes for a shorter learning curve on design concepts. you mentioned a book, "drawing with the right side of the brain". where did you get this book? that's one i had not heard of.

One of the engraving Videos mentioned it ........ Or maybe it was on you tube but it mentioned it was good about learning to draw. I usually check Thrift Books website first and the Amazon and then EBay for a used copy ....... Then search the web ........ Try to buy used first to save a little. If not then I try for an autographed copy from the author.

monk said:

that book makes for a shorter learning curve on design concepts. you mentioned a book, "drawing with the right side of the brain". where did you get this book? that's one i had not heard of.

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Monk, you can get the book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" at most good art shops. that book was required reading and study in my art class in college and is worth reading it; gives you a completely different look at the perception of art and drawing.

Memorymaker said:

Yes definitely ......... I mentioned in that post that I would be taking classes with JJ this fall/winter

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Following up on this, how did the classes go?

Classes went GREAT!! .......... I did 2 days and payed for a week so I can go back for further classes. The first day we went over and fixed and tuned my equipment. There was a few things that had to be fixed. I have both the Lindsay palm control and the Gravermax with several hand pieces. I also have a bunch of different gravers and just about all of them were not sharpened correctly. Sooooo ...... We spent a fair amount of time doing and learning how to sharpen and actually make gravers out of drill bits etc. I was also very impressed with the scuba tank and portable air source setup. It was funny ......... I looked at one of my fishing forums and I bought 3 large filled scuba tanks for $100 and since then I got 2 air gun canisters so I can be portable ........ Still working on some of the hookups though.

JJ did his best to teach me how to engrave properly but I learned that all I can do so far is to scratch metal. I know that I'm challenged when it comes to doing stuff by hand. I tell every one at work that I will design and implement any communication system they want but never put a screwdriver in my hand.

There are a bunch of other things I learned and many many bad habits and equipment tweaks that would have started me in the wrong direction and made it more difficult to learn correctly if JJ hadn't been there to instruct me.

I HIGHLY Recommend taking classes with JJ. He is really talented and I'm looking forward to learning more once I feel my scratches look closer to an engravers stroke.

Big thanks to JJ !!!!!!!