Critique Request Novice - Circles, Lines, Shading Combo - Based on Historical Example - Hand Push

Crossbolt

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I decided to try pushing the limits a bit (no pun intended) and combine some circles and lines and extend my efforts to include basic shading. The attached photo shows my efforts and the historical example I based them on, which is a Horsely pattern (photograph from David Baker's book). I wouldn't call it their "house pattern" but I've only ever seen it on Horsley guns. It is a nice combination of basics and I find it oddly attractive. It seems useful for beginner practice anyway.

I initially tried a liner (Ngraver #7) for the shading but rapidly abandoned that, mostly because I concluded the original was done line by line individually because the liner patter was both too regular and too difficult, at least for me, to manipulate close the circles. I also find liners very difficult to hand push due, I assume to the larger surface area actually being cut.

The circles are 1/16th inch on 3/16th spacing. I've blackened the cuts temporarily with black acrylic because their orientation makes it so they don't show up evenly when photographed otherwise.

For other beginners out there I found this shading to go rather rapidly based on light slightly upward lines - like a prolonged flick or upward curving motion. It was good practice to get the feel of when to start cutting from a line. By the way, I cut away from the line, not towards. There's room for improvement but still I think it looks like more effort than is actually there (yes... you can say there should be more effort applied :) ).

Other notes are that the layout, although simple, I found rather difficult. I didn't get it right. If you look closely the circles are not on a perfect grid. I laid them out measuring them as exactly as I could then scribing them from a template. To improve I think I'd need to scribe at grid, scribe using a compass then cut the circles and grid lines the polish off remaining scribe lines then shade.

Even with the template you can see my circles vary by about 1/32 inch in size. Not to mention the pop outs and "deflation". More practice ... more practice....

Comments, critique and general laughter welcome. Hopefully my fellow novitiates find my postings useful.

Jeremy
 

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didyoung

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I think you are doing a fine job at trying to learn and improve your engraving skills.
The sample picture looks like the original engraver cut to the line.:chip:
Practice and determination is what it takes.
Shawn Didyoung
 
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Crossbolt

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The sample picture looks like the original engraver cut to the line

I went back and forth on that. The evenness of the line start/finish in the center made me wonder it that were the case. On the other hand on the original I see no overcuts into the lines forming the squares from cutting from the center whereas surprisingly I do see a number of over cuts into the circles. I took this to indicate the engraver cut from the basic lines to the center. I actually tried both and found it much easier to cut from the line into the center both from a control and speed perspective... and from the perspective of reducing the risk of damage from poor control which seems greater when making a bad cut into the line as opposed to over extending a "fading" line into the center.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jeremy
 

monk

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a good bit of practice, done rather well. it looks like the background could have been a bit more smooth. it would take the dedication of a saint to get all that shading uniform.
 

Crossbolt

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It's interesting what a photograph appears like sometimes. The surface is much smoother than it looks; it was polished down to 1200. I think what is showing up is the crystal structure of the steel due to variances in how partially polarized reflected light interacts through the camera lens. Thanks for the input.

Jeremy
 

Bluetickhound

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As a rank beginner (like, been doing this for less than two weeks beginner!) I've found it easier to cut to the line rather than away from it on the few practice plates that I've tried shading at all..Just about all I've done up to now is chevron pattern straight lines and circles/curves. I'm having a really hard time doing circles (of any size circumference) right now but each plate shows improvement. Your pictures make me want to try a basket weave pattern that I have on one of my leather stamps, so yes, it IS inspirational!! It'd be good practice cutting longer straight lines and with some shading thrown in for good measure. If nothing else, it would get me doing something other than circles for a minute, and maybe taking a break from it will help me refocus...
 

quickcut07

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Looks pretty nice. The only thing I could add is, as already stated cut towards your line and cut the edge of the line you are cutting towards. This will leave you with a crisp solid line on the opposite side. Leaving the appearance of the shade following under the crossing section, and a crisp ribbon passing over. The same can be said with the dots. It will leave them with a raised look or button effect. I hope I explained that right. That is personal choice but it will help to make it pop and leave a slight 3D effect.
Beautiful work and keep cutting.

Eric
 

Crossbolt

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I thought I'd post an update for any beginners (or others) interested in this.

I made a number of changes and have some comments to pass on:

1. I scribed out a grid, cut the circles and grid (1st photo), polished off most of the scribe marks (2nd photo) then cut the "shading" (3rd and 4th photos). This corrected the sloppy layout. Circles seem to be improving in both size and form. The circles are 1/16th inch diameter; the squares 1/4 inch.

2. Cutting the shading toward the grid line.
Here there is still work to improve on but I think it does work better. As a note to fellow beginners it does provide extensive practice on making delicate cuts up to but no further than a line. I did not go for a semi relief cut on the grid because I wanted a more 2 dimensional look which is what the original appears to be to me. I'll experiment with that later. In the most consistent and quickest cuts with fewest pop outs I found I was pushing the graver with my palm through a light stationary thumb, index finger grip, sort of squeezing it along the cuts if that makes sense.

3. I made the squares a bit larger than the first one and larger than the original I think (photo 4 shows the comparison). I did this to provide more space for longer shading line practice. Having said that I definitely think the smaller original size provides a better look. For reference, I wasn't rushing but found I was shading a single square in 10-15 minutes. I deliberately made the lines a close as I could to see what the resulting texture was like. There are a few spots where I made some minor experiments. The plate is lightly inked with acrylic to help photograph it. This pattern is rather tricky to photograph because it has a very interesting effect on the light. The different orientation of the lines means that parts of the grid "light up" or go dark depending on orientation. Interesting effect.... Victorian/Edwardian rhinestones :)

4. Sharpening. I found I could shade about 3-4 squares before noticing a slight degradation of cutting. Possibly my imagination but a quick power hone of the face and heel on 1200 with a deburr on 2000 seemed to restore ease of cutting. Just a possible reference for those wondering how often re-sharpening is needed. BTW it is low carbon steel and a HSS graver. Then again maybe it's just my imagination.

As usual comments and laughter welcome.

I think I'll take a break from this for a couple plates and move on to see how I do with the same graver on some other basics then come back to another iteration.

Jeremy
 

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monk

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well, yes-- 1200 is good enough for smooth cutting. it just seemed that the plate was a bit rough.
 

Mike_Morgan

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If you could watch the first few minutes of Shawn Didyoungs DVD on shading, your work would take a leap forward... At the start of the video he has blue painters tape on a whiteboard and each piece of tape represents a shading line... he shows how the overlap creates the shading. It's a clever way to represent it and it REALLY made things click for me, because prior to watching it, my shading lines were similar to yours... side by side, and not really creating a shading effect.

I could take a screen shot of it and show you, but out of respect for Shawns copyright, perhaps you could ask him to share that with you.
 

Crossbolt

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Yes I know exactly what you're saying.
It may be a bit daft but I deliberately tried to make each cut similar in width to see the effect of the texture for its own sake and compare to the original. I also deliberately wanted to focus on as routine a cut as possible to minimize the variables in feeling graver control. The result is certainly not classy shading but there was some warped reason to it :)
I'll be taking the approach you suggest on the next round along with trying a graver where I can get a bit more of a bevel for minor relief effects . I'm interested to see both how much effort is needed to move to that stage and what sort of textural comparison it produces compared to the original.
Thanks for the comment and advice..appreciated.
Jeremy
 

Marcus Hunt

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Okay, now after seeing your second layout I see your problem. You won't get the results like those on the gun because your grid is way to big! I'm willing to bet if you put the two alongside one another the gun design is half the size of yours. Work smaller and you'll find the shading lines will have to be half the length and you won't need so many of them. Try to keep your shade lines as even as possible both in length and spacing.

I can't say the design, even on the gun, lights my fire but it's a pretty good shading exercise that you've given yourself and if you're hand pushing, it will help you build the all important muscle memory.

Also, you need a smooth plate but you don't need to go to 1200 grit. 600 is what the gun trade go to here. The actioners would like to go to 1200 but as engravers, a high polish is a nightmare and actually detracts from the engraving because all you can see is reflections.
 
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Crossbolt

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Marcus,

Thank you very much for the feedback.

Yes, absolutely the grid is much too large on the second version; the original is rather close to the gun based on measurements.
As you say it will never be identical due to that but I thought it useful for other practice purposes.... variations on a theme as it were.
I'm finding that the approach of practicing at a slightly large scale provided better scope for establishing skillls with the intent of then shrinking down again. I'd certainly like to know if that is a poor approach and I'd be better of not doing so. Perhaps I should scale back down earlier than I was thinking.

I can certainly see how the design wouldn't appeal to everyone; if I were paying for engraving it isn't what I'd choose. I do find it rather interesting though from a certain perspective and I like the combination it provides of relatively basic themes to practice around. There were occassionally Yorkshire / Tudor roses (dog roses to Americans I believe) used on the trigger guard that livens things up a little bit. In the long term, I actually have a Horsely rubbish case (stock forend and action, with cut barrels) with only border engraving that might be suitable as a first gun to engrave if I ever master it. It would be both historically appropriate and relatively basic. But that is some time away.

Your comment on the 600 versus 1200 is interesting; I shall bear that in mind. It makes sense.

Thanks again

Jeremy

P.S. Are you likely to re-release your English Scroll DVD and Book? I am desperately trying to source a copy.
 

Big-Un

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Marcus,



Your comment on the 600 versus 1200 is interesting; I shall bear that in mind. It makes sense.

I very seldom go finer than 600 grit, on my graver and the metal. Depending on the commission, sometimes I polish my gravers to 2000 and polish the heel and face for greater effect.
 

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