Help, please: Scrolls again

didyoung

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
2,253
Location
Laurel, Montana, United States
I think you might try changing the 3 outside leaves on the smaller scroll.
Find a better way to fill that right-handed space of your pattern.
You have really nice leaf structures in the other parts of your scroll drawing.

If a guy wanted to be picky...your larger scroll could be smoothed out a bit a...just needs a little work to round it out in a couple of spots.
That's my own opinion :tiphat:
It's your creation ...make it however you choose.:thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

Eugene Carkoski

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
370
Location
Omaha, Ne.
I would consider putting the flower or leaf that you have in the lower right-hand corner to the upper right-hand as well , nice Drawing
 

monk

Moderator
Staff member
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
10,857
Location
washington, pa
what they said. the main spine is oval in shape. according to the 'rule". this aint to be done. fwiw, i do like spine in oval format. having said that, if you do them, they must be smooth and have good flow. the smaller one to the right, is much more conforming to the "rule".
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Thanks guys, this is so helpful.
I will try to fill the voids with leafs, try to smoothen out that major scroll.
My goal is to is to make a scroll scene of course but to be on the edge of what the rules allowes.
I want to find my own way of making scrolls but yet within the rules if you know what I mean.
Thanks
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
Your main scroll is egg shaped. You absolutely must fix that. You cannot compromise the spiral in order to make it fit. If it doesn't fit, then you must find another solution.
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Oh man this is hard.
I think I got rid of the egg.
How about now, is this a good base to start with?
I have marked the scrolls with numbers so we have something to point to.

Actually now when I saw it again I thought it might look better with bigger inner scrolls on 1 and 2.
Thanks for your patience.
Mike
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    44.2 KB · Views: 569
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    44.7 KB · Views: 572
Last edited:

Omar Haltam

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Raleigh, NC
I am no expert, but should the #5
scroll be inverted so as it will flow better ... # 3 & 4 are flowing well from the scroll but #5 looks awkward I think I would flip it!
otherwise looks very nice
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Okay this has to be enough for today.
Could this be something, should I do something else with nr 5?
The best
image.jpg
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Hi again,
I slept on it and made some changes this morning.
It feels right, what do you think?
Mike
image.jpg
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
scroll_critique.jpg

You are very close! Huge improvement. Here's the last correction to make in one scroll. Note the length of the two red lines I've drawn. The distance between the turnings is greater in line a than line b. It's subtle but it's there, and it should be fixed. And it's small things like this that make the difference.

You have proven that you can draw perfect scroll backbones so from here on out I'm not going to let you slide! And I say that in an affectionate way because you're proving you have the determination and have made the commitment to do it right, and I admire that. :clapping:

As for oval shaped scroll backbones, I'm not going to say it is never, ever acceptable. I can't think of an example right now, but it's been done before. However you shouldn't mix 'em up with normal shaped scrolls. At this point in your design career I would say to forget about elliptical shaped scrolls for the time being and maybe explore it later if the ideal appeals to you.

As always, this is my opinion and I'm not an authority on how engraving should be done.
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
I am no expert, but should the #5
scroll be inverted so as it will flow better ... # 3 & 4 are flowing well from the scroll but #5 looks awkward I think I would flip it!
otherwise looks very nice

If #5 were flipped it would be growing off of #1 in the wrong direction.
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Wow and thank you so much Sam!
Yeah you are right, I have to learn the rules of scrolls before I can laborate with different styles.
I guess I just have to transfer this now and get ready for cutting.
I will fix that warped scroll of course first.
I think I have to add some gold to it as well.
The problem in this case is that the scene is so small so I don't think it will add that much.
I'll keep you updated as I move on.
The best,
Mike

I'll keep you updated.
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Well the gold did add quite a bit.
I throw on som shading just to see.
Crapy paper so the shading didn't turned out so well but you get the idea.
The best
image.jpg
 

Andrew Biggs

Moderator
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
5,034
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
Well, you can certainly draw and cut metal. What you are lacking at the moment is an overall design ability.

You have the individual elements figured out. It’s the putting them together in a flowing and cohesive manner that is letting you down.

With this design you have underdone the scrolls and overdone the leaf work to compensate and it doesn’t work.

Borders……….borders are important weather they are cut or not. You have ignored yours and it gives the impression that you have randomly banged down a design without much care. I know that is not your intention but it is the look.

I’m assuming that the outline of the knife is the edge of the knife. You need to draw a border inside that line………………Make your work within that border all touches the line. Have a good look at what you have drawn. Look at the distance from the border from scroll 5, scroll, scroll 1 and all the leaf work. They are all different and random. This gives a very uneven appearance and gives the impression that the design has been put on haphazardly.

Scrolls and borders………Bring all your scrolls to touch the borders. Not close, or sort of, but actually touching. The way you have drawn it means you have to fill those gaps in with leaves. This is give some very unbalanced areas. Look at the area between 4 and 5. Big open areas that don’t conform to your canvas. The area around #2 is the same.

Having your scrolls touch the borders will eliminate a lot of the problem.


Number of scrolls……….this is in addition to the comments above. You don’t have enough scrolls and this is creating some real problem areas for you to fill. So to compensate you are trying to fill areas with leaves but it’s not working. The area between 4 and 5 could use some more scroll work to fill in that big blank area and soften those large 4 and 5 scrolls because they are to harsh by themselves. The main scroll #2 could use a couple more scrolls for the same reason. Scroll number 3 is the same. Instead of a massive leaf area it could use a smaller scroll to break the area up. And keep your scrolls touching the borders as I have mentioned above.`

Focal point……….Can be a good thing with a game scene framed by a scroll design. Your eye goes straight to the game scene which is the intention of exercise.

But with scroll only design it can work against you. You have a massive focal point with scroll #1. The eye goes straight to it and it sticks out like dogs balls. The gold accentuates this even more. Everything else becomes secondary to the eye.

So by adding extra scrolls it softens the focal point. When the scroll and leaf are balanced and flowing properly there shouldn’t be a focal point. It should look like a continuous and harmonious design.

Flow…….every canvas we engrave has a flow or a main line to it. You have to find that flow. On a knife it would typically, but not always, be from the rear of the handle to the tip of the blade. Then the design has to flow in that direction. At the moment your flow is from the main scroll #1then is shoots out to left and right and back off to the left again. The gold accentuates this so the whole design is going all over the place. Where scroll # 3 comes off scroll #1looks weak and almost detached.

The shape of the canvas…………this is incredibly important and follows on from flow. You have to have your design enhance and conform to the canvas. They are not two separate things. They both have to be in harmony with one another. Look at scroll #4 and #5. The leaves on the outer part of the scroll make the whole design end abruptly. It looks blunt and harsh. Taper the leaves out more to a finer point to give the design more elegance.

Putting it all together……………Refine your design a lot more. Add more scrolls to break down the design and soften it and eliminate the focal point. Make sure your scrolls touch the borders. Make sure the appropriate leaves touch the borders. Make sure your borders are even.

I've attached a rough sketch to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Just remember that there are a thousand ways that this can be done and the combinations of scroll and leaf are endless. It can be simple or complicated. The choice is yours but one thing always remains the same. The foundations of your design which is the scroll layout, must always be correct or the design will always fail.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Attachments

  • Scrolls-2.jpg
    Scrolls-2.jpg
    100.3 KB · Views: 230

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Oh man!! I thought this thread had run out and that the design was okay. Darned and I just got finished cutting the outlines.
Well I guess I have to finish this one up and just deal with it.
I will read your comments again and again until I get it.
Thank you for taking the time and helping me out here.
Now I know about adding more scrolls and less leaves. I had those thoughts when I was sketching but since the area that I am engraving is so small I thought it would just get messy.
I didn't stay within my borders either, not sure if that's okay or not but I have this chamfers on the handle and a full non broken border would be too big frame I think.
Well thank you once again for all the help you have given me.
I'll keep you updated.
image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
Just so you get the idea of how big the engraving is.
image.jpg
The best
 

henningssom

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Sweden
Andrew,
Come to think about it, I did add a few "half scrolls" if you can say that before I cut the design. Well they are not scrolls but it proves that my reptilian brain is getting there. Yes it's still leafs but it rolls and turns anyway.
image.jpg
The best
 

Andrew Biggs

Moderator
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
5,034
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
Oh dear, it hasn’t really worked out that well has it.

There are two parts to engraving. Cutting and design. Cutting metal is the simple and easy part………..the design is the hardest part.

If you are going to use a transfer then it should be as accurate as you can get………..even then, you have to make some adjustments with a pencil or scribe if things don’t quite work out. Extending scrolls, altering leaves, etc, to make sure they conform with borders.

Spending an extra few minutes or a couple of hours reworking the design on paper or the canvas pays dividends with the final product.

While I’m at it I’ll give you some advise about the leaves in the style you are creating. It’s a small thing but makes a huge difference to the flow of a scroll. With your main cuts…….You need to extend the back of the leaves further down the scroll backbone. This will give your scroll some movement and help define the scroll and leaves better by giving it a better flow. Sort of like a mini tornado with everything swirling toward the centre.

You make a beautiful knife, have really good drawing and cutting skills…………..where you are letting yourself down is with a lack of discipline and impatience to get to the work. And it shows.

My best advise at this stage is for you to slow down a bit between design and cutting. Get the basics right and everything else will flow from there. :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

Attachments

  • Scrolls-3.jpg
    Scrolls-3.jpg
    48.7 KB · Views: 204

Big-Un

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,370
Location
Eden, NC
Dang-it Andrew, just when I thought I was getting the hang of design, you post these suggestions! It kinda threw off the design I just cut on an Uberti Original 1860 Henry.....guess I'll need to do another one for me.

Bill
 

Latest posts

Sponsors

Top