Help, please: Just getting started, a question of scale...

trip59

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Jun 6, 2016
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Hi all, I'm Trip, new to the world of engraving, but I'm one of those folks that can't sit still, lots of irons in the fire. I have experience in glass, leather (both carving and stitching), metal (welding, machining, shaping), wood (turning, carving, carpentry, etc.) and the list goes on, like I said, can't sit still...

I've spun up most of what I've learned I need to get started, machined up hammers, handles, sharpening templates, nice bowl resting in an old cast iron brake rotor (eventually to be bearing mounted as a potter's wheel type base) with about 20lbs of lead and 5lbs of pitch. I do have a microscope, but haven't fabricated an arm yet, so it's optivisor for now. Gravers I've made from .120 O1 tool steel, I have a fair bit of experience with metal work and heat treatment, they seem to hold up well in the piece of semi-hard brass I had laying about.

So I took my first stab at things last night after accumulating and fabricating everything for the last month and realized the one key component I was missing was scale. I suspect that the gravers are all much too large and my cuts way too deep. I can't seem to find numbers on the typical widths of the faces (plenty of angles for sure, but no actual dimensions) or the depth of cut for various types of work. I've thought about just ordering a pre-shaped graver, and may ultimately, but that would go against my typical M.O. of only buying what I can't make.

It may be considered heresy, and I apologize, but I have no interest in traditional scrolls or acanthus leaves... I swore I'd never tool another about 20 years ago (leather work for the last 30 years). My leather and intention for engraving lean heavily toward Celtic designs, knotwork, zoomorphic, etc. I don't imagine this will heavily influence the question of scale, but figured it worth mentioning for context.

Any information would be greatly appreciated, even if it's just a specific recommendation of a preshaped blank to purchase for size reference.

Trip
 

trip59

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Jun 6, 2016
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Appreciate the info, though I'm having a bit of trouble finding pre-sharpened on the site. Lots of blanks, but even with a template set, I'm right back to my original question of the size of the face on a graver.
 

RDP

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The size of the face is what ever you want to make it, the basic graver blanks are 3/32" square about 2inches long, if you look at the Lindsay universal point for reference, you can grind as much as you want to get the shape(top and bottom), the smaller the tip you end up with the easier to see where you are cutting, then grind the face at whatever angle 45, 50, 55 degrees and then grind/polish the heels. hope this helps.
http://www.engravingschool.com/private/images/taper-gravers.gif



Richard.
 

Marrinan

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The size is mostly a matter of preference. Some of my gravers are made by putting the face and heels on the full 3/32 blank most however I belt sand or grind to a pretty much needle point then put the face and about 1/4 mm heels on. Like most of us I am a tool junky. I have 3 power assist systems, I think every sharpening goody that's come down the pike. Hammers of different weights and tool holders, wood and metal. I have found that they all work with some qualifications which I wont go into as this would turn into a treaties and it's to early for that. Order a casting or two from FEGA or Ray Cover or Mike Dubber or several others and that will answer the rest of your question. Nothing like holding the work of a master in your hands and studying the cutting. Best guess you are cutting to deep and wide-we all do when we start out I think. Fred
 

trip59

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The size is mostly a matter of preference. Some of my gravers are made by putting the face and heels on the full 3/32 blank most however I belt sand or grind to a pretty much needle point then put the face and about 1/4 mm heels on. Like most of us I am a tool junky. I have 3 power assist systems, I think every sharpening goody that's come down the pike. Hammers of different weights and tool holders, wood and metal. I have found that they all work with some qualifications which I wont go into as this would turn into a treaties and it's to early for that. Order a casting or two from FEGA or Ray Cover or Mike Dubber or several others and that will answer the rest of your question. Nothing like holding the work of a master in your hands and studying the cutting. Best guess you are cutting to deep and wide-we all do when we start out I think. Fred

Spent a lot of time on YouTube... made a full set of the templates from Shaun Hughes and used them to make about a dozen gravers (batched for hardening/tempering, not all are sharpened yet). The first couple I tried were nearly the full size of the .120 drill rod, though after sharpening, I put the little heel on like I saw in Sam Alfano's H&C and sharpening videos. These seemed way too aggressive (guarantee it was my 'technique') and dove in hard and deep. I had another I relieved way down to maybe .030 width on the face, sharpened the same, this seemed to work better, but again, I wasn't really sure how or why and couldn't tell if the size was critical. I know the 1/4mm-ish heel is important, lots of work in carving wood and the angles register in my mind, but there again there are massive gouges and tiny ones and each performs different, with some being in the right range.

What objects are you interested in engraving on?

Everything of course! In all honesty, I have a number of things that have set on the shelf in wait, but the catalyst for finally having at it was the need for a makers mark for some leather projects (holsters and a couple of belts) and my need to not purchase something I could make. I figured that would be a good place to start, as it's not a very tight design and the eventual medium it would transfer to is fairly forgiving. There are a lot of other things to move to after that though. I spent perhaps a hundred hours welding, machining and hand-working the rocker boxes, primary, cam cover, chain cover, etc. for an 84 Sportster chopper, the intent is to work them up to match the custom tooled leather for the project. Eventually, I'd like to work on a handful of the firearms in my cabinet, though that's quite a ways off.

The size of the face is what ever you want to make it, the basic graver blanks are 3/32" square about 2inches long, if you look at the Lindsay universal point for reference, you can grind as much as you want to get the shape(top and bottom), the smaller the tip you end up with the easier to see where you are cutting, then grind the face at whatever angle 45, 50, 55 degrees and then grind/polish the heels. hope this helps.
http://www.engravingschool.com/private/images/taper-gravers.gif

Richard.

Does, indeed, and the more I read about that point, the more the engineer in my head wants to try it out. My wallet is the anchor holding me back, I'm all in with what should be enough to start practicing and I'm sitting at around $75, with the most expensive part being the pitch for the bowl, everything else I fabricated from on-hand materials. Besides being cheap, part of it is an agreement with the wife, who lets me pursue various crafts with the understanding that the big investments only happen once I've taken to it, not during the 'let's see if I like it' stage.
 

MICHAEL

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You can use hot glue sticks from Wal Mart in place of pitch for holding objects. Way cheaper. I melt mine with a heat gun.
 

trip59

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Jun 6, 2016
Messages
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I have done a good bit of motorcycle engraving. You are welcome to come by any time.

Appreciate the offer, not sure when I'll be back in TX, but I'll definitely hit you up if work takes me out that way.

You can use hot glue sticks from Wal Mart in place of pitch for holding objects. Way cheaper. I melt mine with a heat gun.

Hot snot and I have a long and troubled relationship :) I did consider that, but I thought about it and mitigated the cost with the interest my daughter expressed in seeing some old repousse work and the potential to go there as well.
 

trip59

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Indeed, but when the horse's company closed and he just found a new job, it may take a good bit of time to save up for a $100+ drink :)

I'm not discounting the advantage of the Lindsay products, but there's thousands of years of work before the universal grind was granted a patent...
 

Mike_Morgan

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I'm not discounting the advantage of the Lindsay products, but there's thousands of years of work before the universal grind was granted a patent...

I'm not an expert like many of the advice-bearing individuals that have taken the time to suggest solutions, but I was very much on the same page as you regarding the thought that people engraved for centuries before Lindsay patented the universal grind... in fact I'll be the first to admit that I was a bit taken back by the notion that somebody would actually PATENT something called a "Universal" grind... seems like that should very much be a public domain item.

BUT... I spent the dough on the over-priced plexiglass and I can honestly say it is one of the best investments I have made thus far shy of the countless hours I spent researching the process.

I am 100% certain that a person with skills and tools can learn to sharpen as well as the Lindsay templates perform that task, but I am equally certain that it will take considerably more time and effort to get the exact same job done. My most precious asset is my time, and I sure do enjoy having things that help to preserve that asset.
 

trip59

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Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Messages
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I'm not an expert like many of the advice-bearing individuals that have taken the time to suggest solutions, but I was very much on the same page as you regarding the thought that people engraved for centuries before Lindsay patented the universal grind... in fact I'll be the first to admit that I was a bit taken back by the notion that somebody would actually PATENT something called a "Universal" grind... seems like that should very much be a public domain item.

BUT... I spent the dough on the over-priced plexiglass and I can honestly say it is one of the best investments I have made thus far shy of the countless hours I spent researching the process.

I am 100% certain that a person with skills and tools can learn to sharpen as well as the Lindsay templates perform that task, but I am equally certain that it will take considerably more time and effort to get the exact same job done. My most precious asset is my time, and I sure do enjoy having things that help to preserve that asset.

Ya know, I'd have no problem paying for them, I've engineered a number of things and know the value of the hard work and trial and error that goes into it. Eventually, I may go that route, or a dual angle fixture (or may build my own) but in time I may also go with a pneumatic system as well. At this point, the fact I can make the tools is a big part of how I'm able to even give it a shot. Like I said, I'm out well under a hundred at this point, had I not had a phobia of hot snot and it's many, many associated burns, I'd probably have saved even more. To be fair, I did ask about recommending a presharpened, but my thought ran more towards a GRS #4 something or other that I could pick up for $10 or so on Amazon/Rio Grande/etc. to use for size comparison. Add to that I can't even find the presharpened universal on the site (yes, I could call) and it just went out of my reach for now.

I've been on both sides, where time was a valued commodity and where I am now, plenty of time but little dough.
 

Mike_Morgan

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I've been on both sides, where time was a valued commodity and where I am now, plenty of time but little dough.

I can really understand that, Why don't I just grind you a Universal 116 using my template and send it off to you so you have something to reference? I'd be happy to do that for you. Shoot me a PM with your address and I'll grind it for you early next week and get it in the mail.
 

Idaho Flint

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Feb 24, 2008
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Where are you located at? You may have someone close who you can go over to and see all this for you self, along with someone who may help you pick up the art.

Mike
 

trip59

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Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Messages
7
I can really understand that, Why don't I just grind you a Universal 116 using my template and send it off to you so you have something to reference? I'd be happy to do that for you. Shoot me a PM with your address and I'll grind it for you early next week and get it in the mail.

Mike, that's awesome of you and I surely appreciate it. I was talking to a friend last night and he asked a question that had never crossed my mind to ask... "so, you mean no one has ever posted a picture of these things laying across a ruler or something you could use as a reference?" WOW, how did that not cross my mind (forest for the trees?). Rather than you being out that time and money, any way you could snap a pic of a couple with something definitive for scale?

Where are you located at? You may have someone close who you can go over to and see all this for you self, along with someone who may help you pick up the art.

Mike

I'm about 20 minutes from NAS Jacksonville in North East Florida. Talking to the folks I know, I hadn't come across anyone that knew anyone, but that's certainly not to say there isn't someone nearby.
 

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