Help, please: Knifemakers........Damascus advice please.

DKanger · Apr 16, 2016

I have made a gun lock plate for an Alex Henry percussion target rifle. It's Damascus from Kevin Cashen. I've misplaced the sheet that came with it, but I remember it's forged from O1 and another metal.

I need to harden and temper it for wear, as the tumbler hole often wears egg shaped from the spring tension of the main spring. Then I need to color it to bring out the Damascus pattern. I have only an oxy/acetyl torch and kitchen range to do this.

What advice can you offer?

Jan Hendrik · Apr 16, 2016

DKanger said:
I have made a gun lock plate for an Alex Henry percussion target rifle. It's Damascus from Kevin Cashen. I've misplaced the sheet that came with it, but I remember it's forged from O1 and another metal.

I need to harden and temper it for wear, as the tumbler hole often wears egg shaped from the spring tension of the main spring. Then I need to color it to bring out the Damascus pattern. I have only an oxy/acetyl torch and kitchen range to do this.

What advice can you offer?

My advice is to go to a knife maker that does his own hardening and tempering. Give him the specifications of your Damascus and let him do the hardening and tempering for you to get predictable and reliable results. Using an oxy acetylene torch will not give you a quality reliable uniform hardening at all.
To bring out the colour of the steel you will need to sand the part after hardening and tempering to a good finish. You can then hot blue the part or dip it in a solution of ferric chloride. Hot blueing looks really good and will give some measure of rust protection as well. However you will have to oil the piece from time to time to prevent rust forming over time.

DKanger · Apr 16, 2016

My advice is to go to a knife maker that does his own hardening and tempering.

He passed away earlier this year, so that's not an option. I mentioned the torch to take that option off the table.

Using an oxy acetylene torch will not give you a quality reliable uniform hardening at all.

Don't need one. Just a thin surface case hardening. On a regular lock plate, I would just do the tumbler hole with the torch and Casenite. Have done many locks this way and they always came out "file hard." Just have never done with made from tool steel or damascus. I could also do "pack hardening" and I thought perhaps there are some knifemakers with blacksmith skills that don't use heat treat ovens.

To bring out the colour of the steel you will need to sand the part after hardening and tempering to a good finish. You can then dip it in a solution of ferric chloride.

Just to let everyone know what I am shooting for........the lock plate is real Damascus and the barrel will have a fake Damascus pattern. Using a selective etching process, I will brown/black the etched areas and slow brown the unetched areas to get my patterning contrast. It might take several tries to achieve the look I am after.

tsterling · Apr 16, 2016

Seems to me if case hardening is all you need and you have experience doing that, then I'd recommend you etch the part in ferric chloride to expose the damascus pattern, then case harden as normal.

If you harden the entire part, there's an excellent chance of warping it, and unless you have experience getting the warp out of knife blades, then it seems there's a pretty big risk here.

Best of luck,

Tom

oiseau metal arts · Apr 16, 2016

how big is the part? if its at least 1/8" thick then it should not be too much of a worry of warping. you can stack up a few fire bricks to work like a make shift forge to trap/control the heat with the O/A torch as heat source. do this in low light. heat the piece till it no longer attracts a magnet. after checking that the magnet no longer sticks to it, put back in the heat for a few more sec, then dip it into a pan of oil that has been heated up a bit. I have a bread pan with about 1qt. ill heat up a scrap of steel and quench it first to preheat the oil. stir the part gently in the oil while it cools. do not drop into oil flat. once cool enough to touch, clean off oil, then immediately put piece into preheated oven at 375-425 for an hour to draw the temper back a bit. this is not case hardening, this will harden the piece all the way through.
being Damascus, the other metal is likely going to be 15N20, or pure nickel. the 15N20 will harden up along with the O1, but the nickel will give stronger contrast. either way, its the O1 youre really dealing with. itll also etch better and faster after heat treating especially in a fresh batch of 50/50mix FC/white vinegar. if you done want a deep etch, check on it every 10-15 min

Jan Hendrik · Apr 16, 2016

DKanger said:
He passed away earlier this year, so that's not an option. I mentioned the torch to take that option off the table.

Don't need one. Just a thin surface case hardening. On a regular lock plate, I would just do the tumbler hole with the torch and Casenite. Have done many locks this way and they always came out "file hard." Just have never done with made from tool steel or damascus. I could also do "pack hardening" and I thought perhaps there are some knifemakers with blacksmith skills that don't use heat treat ovens.

Just to let everyone know what I am shooting for........the lock plate is real Damascus and the barrel will have a fake Damascus pattern. Using a selective etching process, I will brown/black the etched areas and slow brown the unetched areas to get my patterning contrast. It might take several tries to achieve the look I am after.

I think you misread my reply to your question. I said go to A knife maker that does his own hardening and tempering. That means ANY knife maker that does this himself. It does not have to be the guy that made the damascus steel.
It goes without saying that it is always a good idea to ask somebody with experience for help rather than doing a potentially costly experiment and wasting many hours of work.
You are dealing with Damascus steel where only one of the metals used in the layers is known to you. This can affect the hardening and tempering process substantially.
I have made Damascus steel on several occasions using various steels including O1 tool steel.
You stand the chance of having the O1 tool steel cracking during the quenching in the oil.
You state that you have never done your own case hardening with tool steel or damascus.
Go ahead, do what you like and hope for the best. I hope you have a spare piece of the same damascus laying around from your deceased knife maker friend just in case.

DKanger · Apr 16, 2016

Tom and Damon,
You both give good advice, thanks. The order of hardening and etching is one thing I was concerned about, before or after. One of you says the former and the other the latter.

The plate is thick enough that I won't have any warping problems. The piece will be attached to an iron wire thru one of the screw holes and plunged into the oil on it's short edge. I realize that the piece will be thru hardened which presents no problem. I have the spec sheet somewhere.....I just need to locate it.

It seems to me that it should be etched after quenching since it will have to be repolished prior to browning it. Between the etching and the browning, I should be able to get the color differentials I am looking for.

This is the plate during its fabrication. Much of the thickness has been milled away leaving only a bolster to support the main spring and lock screw.

And this is the assembled lock.

I have pieces of scrap that I will experiment with before actually doing the final job. I've tried straight FeCl in the past and only got faint results. Someone told me you must dilute it with water to be effective, but I haven't tried that yet. I can see where the vinegar would make it more aggressive.

tsterling · Apr 16, 2016

Ferric chloride (I presume you are talking about Radio Shack liquid as a source) will probably give you a cleaner etch if you dilute 1 part ferric to 3 or 4 parts distilled water. Temperature will play a large part on the speed of etching - obviously, warmer = faster etch.

Also, please note I said to etch before case hardening, not a full hardening. Since case hardening is only skin deep, etching afterwards will remove some or all of the desired hard layer. You should also use a masking agent to protect any bearing surfaces during the etch, since the etched damascus will be rougher and cause more wear and tear of the rotating parts.

And, judging by your photo, you will need a much finer surface finish before etching. Etching will only enhance the rough spots in your photo.

Tom

McAhron · Apr 16, 2016

Coat it with antiscale compound from Brownells or with high temp furnace cement( caulking) from the hardware store to prevent scale build-up. Heat till nonmagnetic 1550f ,then quench in vegi oil. Tempering at 425-475 will leave it quite hard,475-525 will leave it soft enough to engrave easier.Ferric chloride is the best acid to reveal the pattern,soak for thirty seconds,neutralize the acid with ammonia based window cleaner,rinse in sink,repeat acid then neutralizer until the Damascus pattern is sufficient for you.

mitch · Apr 17, 2016

iirc, Kevin Cashen is a master bladesmith or some such. any particular reason you wouldn't just ask him to handle this for you? (or is he the knifemaker you referred to as having passed away?)

DKanger · Apr 17, 2016

Kevin Cashen is a master bladesmith or some such. any particular reason you wouldn't just ask him to handle this for you? (or is he the knifemaker you referred to as having passed away?)

Jan made some false assumptions to which others build on. I got this piece of steel from Kevin about 15 years ago in a barter with him. Last I heard, he was up Michigan somewhere. My friend Jerry MacDonald from Memphis was the knifemaker from Memphis to whom I referred.

All that is irrelevant to my questions. Had I wanted to send it out, I never would have posed my questions. I don't learn anything that way. Guys like Tom and Damon understand what I'm looking for, and perhaps others as well. Others suggest complex answers to simple problems based on their assumptions. After having built a number of these rifles for others, this will be my personal gun. Thus, I have the leeway to experiment with new ideas and methods which I haven't tried before. If something doesn't work out, I can always file it off and start over. I also have some scrap pieces to try some of the suggestions on before doing the final work.

Tom's suggestion about masking the bearing surfaces before etching is something I probably wouldn't have thought of. I will try both water and vinegar dilutions of the FeCl. I will try some different quenching oils. Heating to non-magnetic has always been the method I've used. Previously, I have used 1/2" of 10w oil floating on water which gave cased colors. I'm not looking for that this time. Also, metal polishing and finishing comes after the rifle is "in the white." I'm not at that stage yet.

I still welcome other ideas or methods not yet mentioned.

atexascowboy2011 · Apr 17, 2016

I would suggest getting in touch with our new resident damascus knifemaker, Jerry Fisk. You can Google him for a contact #.

mitch · Apr 17, 2016

DKanger said:
Had I wanted to send it out, I never would have posed my questions. I don't learn anything that way.

i can certainly appreciate that way of thinking. i guess as i get older there are more and more things where i just say "what are the odds i'm ever going to need to know/do this again?" and i just find somebody who already knows the drill. and often i'm perfectly content with whoever explaining the process, so i do gain a bit of knowledge for future reference, without acquiring more tools, chemicals, etc., or screwing anything up while i'm climbing the learning curve.

Jan Hendrik · Apr 18, 2016

DKanger said:
Jan made some false assumptions to which others build on. I got this piece of steel from Kevin about 15 years ago in a barter with him. Last I heard, he was up Michigan somewhere. My friend Jerry MacDonald from Memphis was the knifemaker from Memphis to whom I referred.

All that is irrelevant to my questions. Had I wanted to send it out, I never would have posed my questions. I don't learn anything that way. Guys like Tom and Damon understand what I'm looking for, and perhaps others as well. Others suggest complex answers to simple problems based on their assumptions. After having built a number of these rifles for others, this will be my personal gun. Thus, I have the leeway to experiment with new ideas and methods which I haven't tried before. If something doesn't work out, I can always file it off and start over. I also have some scrap pieces to try some of the suggestions on before doing the final work.

Tom's suggestion about masking the bearing surfaces before etching is something I probably wouldn't have thought of. I will try both water and vinegar dilutions of the FeCl. I will try some different quenching oils. Heating to non-magnetic has always been the method I've used. Previously, I have used 1/2" of 10w oil floating on water which gave cased colors. I'm not looking for that this time. Also, metal polishing and finishing comes after the rifle is "in the white." I'm not at that stage yet.

I still welcome other ideas or methods not yet mentioned.

I disagree about the relevance of my answer to your question.
Your piece of damascus is quite big, therefore you will need very even heat distribution for a successful heat treatment. An oxy acetylene torch is in my opinion not adequate for the job. Overheating the steel in places is a real risk and may result in excessive large grain structure forming which in return may result in the steel cracking when you quench it. If this happens you will actually hear the steel cracking in the quench bath. Uneven heat distribution can also result in the piece warping during the quench. How you place the piece in the quench bath may also cause warping. You may end up with a banana shaped plate. I am pretty sure there will be more than one knife maker in your area that can assist you with heat treatment in either a gas forge or an electric kiln.
I also suggest painting the inside of your holes with nail polish when you etch the plate in ferric chloride to prevent the ferric from eating away at the inside of the holes, especially where you will have moving parts.
After heat treatment you will need to temper the steel because it will be very hard, but brittle. Letting it drop on the floor after hardening can easily result in a broken plate. It can literally break into pieces!
As for wanting to learn something by doing it yourself is great. I know most knife makers would be happy to guide you to do it yourself using their equipment.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you are successful.

P.S my father tried to heat treat several knives using an oxy acetylene torch and ended up with a few banana shaped blades and crinkled cutting edges.

lost okie · Apr 18, 2016

I believe Kevin uses a mix of O1 and L6. Not 100 percent on that. It will be very,very tough after hardening.
A piece that shape and thickness I would have no problem using a torch. A forge or oven would would be ok too.
Heat it to an even non-magnetic, quench in warm peanut oil, draw back to 400f. two times for two hours.
Both of those steels are very deep hardening. I don't think case will work.
Make sure your holes are undersize and clean up after tempering, or scale in the holes will throw you off.
Etch in ferric. You are good to go.
Mike

Jerry Fisk · Apr 18, 2016

Yes, what Mike the Okie said and use Mabalyne Red color nail polish. It works a tad better in the resist and easier to see in the clean up. Silver is right below. Kevin's steels has too much carbon to case harden.

silverchip · Apr 18, 2016

I recently posted a knife that I built using Damascus made from 15n20 and 1085. Anyhow, It is heat treated using a torch and quenched in old used oil,then polished and etched with ferric chloride. Certain portions are masked with fingernail polish to retain a flat polished surface. The spring was made of O1 tool steel and heat treated with a torch as well. You said you wanted to "case harden " it, not sure you will be successful because the steel you have described is tool steel and will flat out harden if you were to heat it and treat it that way.While the concept of a Damascus sidelock is kool, unless you heat treat it and draw it back before you get to the etching and finish,it will be hard as glass and brittle. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Help, please: Knifemakers........Damascus advice please.

DKanger

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