simple CAD program

diandwill

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I know virtually nothing about cad/cam. I am looking for a simple and inexpensive program to use with my Celtic design rings. It would be nice to change the size, the width and maybe the density of the knot patterns, and adjust the size of the stones. Then I would like to get a 3D printer, just a simple one should do, and not have to use rubber molds and injection waxes to be a ble to reproduce the designs.

I am definately on a serious budget. Any suggestions? I don't really want to rent the program or do it in the cloud. I would like something that I can do in my store...and keep there.
 

airamp

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Hi,

You could always go the route of making masters in sterling and vulcanizing a mold and be able to make any variations from the masters you made.
Cad/cam programs are very expensive delcam jewel smith is for making jewelry prototypes as is Rhino but they cost...

3D printers to do wax (from 3d systems) is also very expensive. Not all printers have the resolution or the media for lost wax casting.

IF you can get the design in a format that works (call 3d systems) they can make the waxes for you from a machine you could not afford (50K or more) in wax high resolution but again not cheap.

So Masters and molds are way to go.
Sorry for the bad news.

Airamp
 

diandwill

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I already make masters and mold them. Most of the originals are cast in 14K, better to mold than sterling, and I do alter the waxes I pull. It would be nice to find an affordable way to reproduce the 150-250 original designs I have w/o having to heat the waxpot and pull waxes.

It would make inventory so much easier. A local cad person told me she charges $100 and uip for the program, per piece. Obviously I can't do that. A simple 3D printer is around $1000.00 If I could find a less expensive way to get the program, it would (at times) be feasible.
 

monk

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it may do you no good(based on no info), but a few years back, i got a celtic type program that output in most extensions we all use. you could choose format, oval, square,etc and choose from a variety of design variables. i got it from the net. was maybe 10 bucks. it's now in a computer that went to the landfill. surf the net, you may be surprized what's out there. some is even free.
 

Gemsetterchris

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Zbrush is relatively cheap but you can build anything...once you figure out how (it'll take a while).
You could very easily do your Celtic with that, even though It's not a jewelry specific program.

Also don't forget CNC milling machines, everyones talking printers which is not necessarily what you need.
 

diandwill

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Zbrush is relatively cheap but you can build anything...once you figure out how (it'll take a while).
You could very easily do your Celtic with that, even though It's not a jewelry specific program.

Also don't forget CNC milling machines, everyones talking printers which is not necessarily what you need.

Your right, but most milling machines start at $4000 and go up. The simplest 3d printer is around $1000.
 

GTJC460

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The $1000 printers don't have the resolution for fine jewelry. The least expensive printer I know of that is being used for jewelry is the B9 creator. I believe its around $4-5k for one that's been assembled (don't quote me as its been about 2 years since I looked at it). I bought an Asiga Pico which cost between $7-10k. I also have a Minitech 4 axis mill and a ModelMaster 4 axis mill.

Yep!!! I used to do a ton of prototyping and jewelry manufacturing, including a line of Masonic jewelry and a whole lot of pave for jewelry store clients.

My go to cad software was and still is Artcam; however, I also have and use rhino/matrix. I can use either program interchangeably.

My point to this is if you want professional results, you need professional tools AND you need to develop the skills to use them. You can't just buy in and expect professional results. It's no different than engraving. You've got to put the time in.
 

airamp

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Hi,

The problem is the material and resolution of the 3d printers. You are used to quality waxes and a 3d shoots plastic (problem with burnout in that there is a lot or carbon/residue in the plastic) not even close to wax.
A 3d that shoots wax is a minimal of 8-12k cost wise.
software for building models and the learning curve are both high so unless you can run the software you are at a huge learning curve and a huge disadvantage both time and money.
Making Masters in sterling and molding them is the way master jewelers in NY make there molds (some use copper). If you have vulcanized molds the material if the master doesn't matter. The quality of the master will dictate the quality of the casting not the material used.
Maybe give the Wizgem.com site a try.
I am speaking from experience I cast 5x7 flask x8 in one burnout, I have made masters and molds and use expensive (over 20K cadcam software) for machine work (not jewellery). Learning the software is like taking a 2 year college course before you can make anything useful.

Masters and making molds is the cheapest way to go but it is a trade off.
More money spent less time making molds and masters = less profit unless you sell 1000's.
Less money more in the setup,molds, master = more profit for less than 1000 of each..

Cheap and easy just doesn't exist from what i have seen not without the loss of quality and much more rejects and cleanup..

Best of luck to you.

AirAmp
 

DDBright

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I have been using various CAD/CAM programs for over 17 years, and also do 3D printing. (I own/use 3 different printers) As Bert said " if you want professional results, you need professional tools AND you need to develop the skills to use them. You can't just buy in and expect professional results."

It takes time and effort to master both systems. But I can state, from experience, that the cheapest and easiest way to get into CAD work and 3 D printing would be as follows:

Download a free trial copy of Rhino from the McNeel website. See if you can understand and make some sense of it. It will not be easy. BUT, there is more free information and tutorials, on the internet, for Rhino, than just about any other CAD program out there. It is a VERY powerful program, and worth the effort to learn. A copy of the program is in the $900.00 range

At present, the cheapest, and really good, jewelry quality, 3D printer, on the market is the Solus. The Distributor is in California. His name is Emil Karapatyan of Junction3D. Total cost for this printer is 3K.

Step number 2 (the 3D printer) may/could be optional, as there are many 3D printing services in the Los Angeles Area. What I mean by this is, you can use the printing service until your volume reaches the point where it would pay you to own the printer rather than farm out the work. The wax prints are usually done on a CPX machine. (Check out Starrwax.) They are fragile, but cheap. Postage is the killer here. Even with owning 3 printers I still often use this service, as I don't have this style of printer. Some highly detailed pieces are best done with either the CPX or Solidscape printer.

A 4 axis mill (I also have a Modelmaster) is NOT cheap, but you may be able to snag one off of Ebay or one of the Jewelers Forums. But, keep in mind, unless your a machinist, you are going to have to learn some of these skills too, to be able to produce wax models.

The learning curve is VERY steep for what your asking to do. It will take some time, but, you asked for the most reasonable way to get into this, and based upon experience, as well as a lot of " been there done that", the path that I have laid out would be the cheapest way to accomplish CAD/CAM and printing.

David
 

diandwill

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Wow! Thanks all for the information. Thats probably why I still handcarve waxes, and vulcanise rubber molds. I have the equipment and have done the learning curve. Oh, well.
 

GTJC460

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That's for sure! You need at least 0.1mm (or better) to get a fairly smooth finish.

View attachment 36971

Doc, my printer will do 1 micron layers (.001mm) and x/y resolution of 25microns. Even at this level I'm fairly unimpressed with the smoothness of the models.

In all the cad/cam and manufacturing of jewelry over the last nearly 20 years, I've come to the conclusion that the best models for really high quality jewelry are the most simplistic. They cast and finish out the easiest. The setting and engraving takes more skill but ultimately the best looking pieces come from very simple wax models. Any time you try to cast very fine details, you might get an awesome raw casting, but unfortunately that very fine detail gets washed out in finishing.

Long story short, there's NO EASY BUTTON FOR HIGH QUALITY.
 

Gemsetterchris

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Well what an interesting topic :)
I guess no matter how fancy your software & hardware is, the end process is pouring molten metal..stands to reason that simplicity rules for a better result.
There are sintering machines but I guess they produce a lot of porosity.
Another thing I've noticed is with jewellery magazines & websites is that looking closely, you'll notice a lot of images are nothing more than rendered CAD design...extremely realistic but all faked.
 
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silverchip

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Sometimes it might be smarter to pay someone with the equipment and knowledge to do it for you on a regular basis, I know of one company that does this,I am sure there are many. If you could upload a design and email it and get it back in side of 2-3 days as a castable model and just pass along the cost, it makes for great turn around and less stress.
http://www.malakandiamond.com/ is one of these. I have seen their product in person,Pretty good stuff.
 

Edward Soye

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If you are buying a 3D printer just take your money and stick it into and envelope and sent it to me.
I will buy my kids some toys
I will not give you anything and tell you all sorts of story's but your money is mine, your time is gone and you still have to make rings the old way.

I bought a $58000.00 one and was given all sorts of stories, we even got a story from the company rep "well they new they did not really work but they were built and they needed the money"

Never buy until you get samples to cast and finish, if it does not work they will blame you so ask for another. When it doesn't work again ask yourself is my time not valuable, why would I buy a cool tool, that is not saving me any time?

and a lot of the work suffers, bad surface on the wax and incomplete burnout, and thermal expansion cracking up investment all cause worse castings and therefore worse product....

We have tried all types of 3D printers, no doubt they are cool but in my opinion they are not there yet. We just tested another set of samples and the result was better but not great. We use 4 axis milling and creative thinking to produce most items.
We have artcam jewelsmith and matrix for eleven years and they are great. Matrix has knot builders and they are very limited. Getting better but not worth it. Stuller a supply company from the USA seem to be running Gemvision so we will see if it will help or not. They started out by taking milling machines off their product lines which doesn't make me happy, mine is eleven years old.

The hopes for just telling the program a different stone size and having it rebuild the ring is still a dream. They have some features that try ....

My greatest discovery in the last few years is this forum and the awe inspiring work I see.

I am a Gemmologist, goldsmith, gem and diamond setter, I've been at it for more than 25 years and I'm such a rookie.

I am trying to get some time to practice and start engraving but we'll see!
 

mitch

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There are sintering machines but I guess they produce a lot of porosity.

a few months ago i sat in on a meeting with a couple industry reps for a company that makes machines for laser sintering metals (stainless, titanium, etc., you name it). when i commented on the virtually solid appearance, they said they're approaching 98% density in some materials. oh, and btw- their machine is about $800,000 plus a $30,000/MONTH! service contract...
 

DakotaDocMartin

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a few months ago i sat in on a meeting with a couple industry reps for a company that makes machines for laser sintering metals (stainless, titanium, etc., you name it). when i commented on the virtually solid appearance, they said they're approaching 98% density in some materials. oh, and btw- their machine is about $800,000 plus a $30,000/MONTH! service contract...

They will probably sell a bunch of them to the government to make widgits with at astronomical prices the taxpayer will have to pay for. :)
 

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