Question: Potters wheel turntable

Boomhower · Jan 16, 2016

Hello everyone. I read that some hammer and chisle engravers use this method to turn there vise
I have thought about making me one but before I go and make one I wood like some opinions on it if anyone has tried one out.

Brian Marshall · Jan 16, 2016

The potters wheel that hammer chisel guys/gals prefer is the foot driven "kick wheel", not the tabletop version that is used with a microscope and low based engravers ball.

Just making sure you know the difference...

Brian

Boomhower · Jan 16, 2016

Yeah sorry I didn't ask the question wright.
The kick wheel is what I was asking about. I thank it wood help me but not sure if that makes sense win I get a good cut going I have to stop to reposition the vise I am steal learning just thought I'd ask before I made one

Andrew Biggs · Jan 16, 2016

I was first introduced to this concept in Neil Hartleips books and I have to say it worked pretty well.................I started out with one when starting with hammer and chisel. Especially if your limited with room and can't "walk around the vise"

It does take a bit of getting used to though as you are virtually standing one legged and manoeuvring the setup with your other foot. So in the end I just used a tall bar stool and sat down which was a hell of a lot easier........Mind you, back then, my vise was a $15 hobby vise from an electronics shop and had no rotation. And I spent more time trying to get a sharp tool than cutting

Did it work?.........yes it did.

Oh yeah....my eyesight was also a hell of a lot better back then and an optivisor was all I needed.............How times change....Hah!!!

Cheers
Andrew

dogcatcher · Jan 16, 2016

Search "Shimpo pottery banding wheel". It works for me.

Brian Marshall · Jan 16, 2016

The banding wheel has no brake. It is "freewheeling" and not a good choice for hammer & chisel.

No way to really do a good job of stopping and turning with both hands full.

It IS a good choice, especially economically - over the turntables currently made for use under a microscope.

The kick wheel can be turned and stopped dead with the feet. Your hands are occupied with the hammer & chisel...

That was why I asked if he was aware of the difference...

Brian

Boomhower · Jan 16, 2016

Thanks Andrew. I am very limited to the space I have I am working off my table saw now in my wood shop. I have a place that I can build a bench but no way to walk around my work. That's where the potters wheel "kick wheel" concept clicked when I read about it.
Sorry dogcatcher I should have been more specific in the title and post
I thank I will build me one this week and give it a try. It wood have to be better then stopping and starting so much
Thanks for the reply's everyone

Thierry Duguet · Jan 16, 2016

Brian Marshall said:
The potters wheel that hammer chisel guys/gals prefer is the foot driven "kick wheel", not the tabletop version that is used with a microscope and low based engravers ball.

Just making sure you know the difference...

Brian

Actually there is more than one way to use a turn table. I am strictly an hammer and chisel engraver and I use a table top one with some success.

Boomhower · Jan 16, 2016

That's cool Thierry duguet how do you keep it from turning ? Win you are cutting

Thierry Duguet · Jan 16, 2016

Actually I build my own, I wanted something very low profile because I work sitting under a microscope. Since my potter wheel is very low profile I just put a wedge between the top of the circular disk and the support, my potter wheel is 1/3 of an inch thick and 10" diameter.

Good luck

Boomhower · Jan 16, 2016

Awesome deal

Roger Bleile · Jan 16, 2016

The second picture below is of the late Neil Hartleip using a foot kick potter's wheel vise. What you can't see is that there is a shaft that goes from the vise to the floor. On the end of the shaft was a steel wheel with rows of welded on bumps to give Neil's foot traction. Some similar set ups that I have seen use a wheel and tire on the end of the shaft.

Note that Neil cuts in the "Asian" fashion, whereby he cuts toward himself. Most of those I've seen who used the foot wheel cut that way. I suppose that one could cut in the "side-hand" or "European" manner using a foot wheel but I have no experience with that.

The top picture is of the late Bill Mains (with the beard). In Bill's picture you can see the shaft that goes to the foot wheel. Bill also cut in the Asian method

Boomhower · Jan 17, 2016

That is some great information Roger the photos gave me ideas to make one and I never wood of thought cutting towards me but I can see how you can see better that way
I am going to make mine with a slip collar so I can adjust the height now that I see them in use.
Thank you for posting

Sam · Jan 17, 2016

My vise was mounted on a shaft to the floor and I used a kick wheel for a few years and it was very effective. I used it for hammer & chisel (side hand style) and later on for Gravermax engraving. When I made the switch to pneumatic, I left the wheel in place because it made turning the vise between cuts really fast. When cutting with the handpiece I would turn it by hand. With hammer & chisel I turned it by foot.

Roger Bleile · Jan 17, 2016

Boomhower said:
That is some great information Roger the photos gave me ideas to make one and I never wood of thought cutting towards me but I can see how you can see better that way
I am going to make mine with a slip collar so I can adjust the height now that I see them in use.
Thank you for posting

I am not suggesting that you change to the Asian method to use the foot wheel vise. As you see, Sam used it side-hand style. While I have seen some moderately good engraving done Asian style, I know of none of the top tier engravers that use the Asian style.

Below is an image of Armin Bundschuh of Austria that illustrates proper hand and chisel position as taught in Europe. There are other ways of positioning the H&C but I think this one is the most common as practiced by engravers trained in Austria, Belgium, and Italy.

The next image shows German Master Andreas Amthor who cuts with the vise in a lower position. Note Andreas holds his work in a bench vise. There is a shaft under the center of the vise that allows it to turn 360 degrees. There is also a drag adjustment on the shaft. German gun engravers trained at the school in Suhl work differently than most other Europeans. For cutting scroll, their work is off-center in the vise (called "ein Suhler Schraubstock"). As they cut the spirals the vise rotates around its axis which allows them to cut scrolls without moving their feet or turning the vise with one hand. This technique was demonstrated to me at the Merkel factory in Suhl. They let me try it for a few minutes but I couldn't get the hang of the technique. You have to see it to believe it.

Roger Bleile · Jan 17, 2016

The following sequence of images depict Merkel factory engraver, Felix Pabst cutting scroll on the action of a Merkel Helix rifle. As you see the action in different positions, understand that Felix has not moved his feet or stopped to move the vise with his hand. I wish I had a video of this technique. You can also see the shaft and drag adjustment under the vise.

Jim Kelso · Jan 17, 2016

Roger Bleile said:
While I have seen some moderately good engraving done Asian style, I know of none of the top tier engravers that use the Asian style.

Roger I suppose you are meaning you haven't seen any top-tier non-Asian engravers using the "Asian" style. Certainly the Japanese used it to unsurpassed effect. I think your statement could be misunderstood to imply that somehow it's a style unworthy of consideration. Personally I only use it rarely when I need a critical look at the front of the chisel. Otherwise, for me, I discovered it late in the game and it never felt that comfortable. I asked Amayak Stepanyan about it and he said a number of top Russian engravers use it as well.

I think anyone taking up engraving would be well advised to try all the different approaches to find what is most comfortable for them.

The historic work of the Japanese would serve to show it is certainly worth a try. More recently, here is a photo of Toshimasa Sensei, (Sakai Masaichi) and a tsuba of his from three decades ago.

Boomhower · Jan 17, 2016

Thank you guys very much. Rodger and Jim thank you for the photos and information it is great inspiration the photos have gave me a ton of ideas to build me a real place to work at.

Roger Bleile · Jan 17, 2016

Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I should have said "gun engravers." Japanese engraving on sword fittings and various objet de art can be of the highest quality and artistic merit. At the same time, while I have seen hundreds of Japanese engraved guns, none have ever been of the quality of their non gun work. I ascribe this to the fact that Japanese gun engraving almost always attempts to imitate Germanic engraving. I think that is because they have no gun collectors locally and the Mirouku factory has directed them to imitate Germanic and Belgian work.

I didn't know that some Russian engravers cut Asian style. I never thought to ask Amayk about it.

Jim Kelso · Jan 17, 2016

Ah hah...thanks Roger. I think I've only seen one or two Japanese engraved guns, and I'd have to agree with you.

Question: Potters wheel turntable

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