Stainless watch case

monk

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i'm amazed that you can handle stones so small. more amazing that they remain in place ! how many hours do you figure this job took to complete ? if i tried that, i think at least half of them would end up under my shoes.
 

Gemsetterchris

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I'd be stuck without a microscope these days, but 20 years ago I could see fine.
I don't track time as I do other work at the same time..but a couple of full days I would think.
 

Brian Marshall

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If they say it takes 10 years or 10,000 hours to "mastery" - and Chris has over 20 years and 20,000 full time hours to get to the level where he can confidently take in a job like this and pull it off flawlessly...


Then it might just take a couple youtube videos, some magic tools and a year or so to be able to do the same nowadays?


Brian
 

Gemsetterchris

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It's dead easy to learn "how to" these days on youtube Brian, & if all goes to plan then great.

The tricky bit is what "not to do & when" & how to see problems before they arise..try finding a video on that :D
 

monk

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I'd be stuck without a microscope these days, but 20 years ago I could see fine.
I don't track time as I do other work at the same time..but a couple of full days I would think.

i guess you put a bit of valium in your coffee before doing this ?? i would need it !
 

Brian Marshall

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Hmmmm....

So what you are saying Chris, is that you can learn the basic skills to set stones in a year or so.

But it takes another 19 years to learn what you actually need to know to pull off a job like the one you've posted?

Seems about right to me, based on my own years bent over the scope...


Unless, of course, someone manages to put up youtube videos that will substitute for the years and hours of experience.

Imagine watching years and years of video - about what NOT to do... and how to fix it when you do...


Brian


The knowledge of how to swim or ride a bicycle cannot be passed along - it must be discovered in a deeply personal way by the individual. S. Chandler

The more you do, the more you can do. Thomas Jefferson
 
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Gemsetterchris

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You can't deny the fact It's a lot quicker & easier to learn stuff these days with the modern tools & internet..
Old school apprenticeships were 5 yrs, & you should be proficient & well experienced by then...but of course that continues on forever.
Wouldn't suprise me if a year or two would do it these days.

I don't think there is a simple answer to that, except to say I'm honoured to have learnt the hard way & happy that some things are a lot easier now wether from experience or technology or abit of both :)
I guess I'm saying the theory is so much easier with modern visual learning from your armchair, but you still need to actually physically do it wrong lots of times to learn what to look out for when you can't afford to screw up.:)

Then again, you could work for a lifetime & still be producing crap or doing it wrong...seen that too!
 
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Gemsetterchris

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Sounds abit like when I left jewellery college to start my apprenticeship...forget everything you think you learnt & let's start from scratch...
 

Brian Marshall

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There may well be a reason for that...

I have had quite a few graduates of university metals & jewelry programs taught by teachers/professors who were taught by teachers/professors who were taught by teachers/professors.

The problems I encounter with what they taught to the students who later came to me - was that NONE of these teacher/professors ever went out and made a living at metalsmithing, goldsmithing, silversmithing or various other related techniques!

They taught only what they had been taught by teachers who taught what they had been taught. Quite a bit of which was not what the students found to be useful when they tried to use these techniques in the "real world". (omitted details that are important to making a living in the trade - or even completely out of date)

Kinda like our public educational system in the USA... and the faulty preparation given to students who then have huge problems negotiating "real life" without the really useful skills or knowledge that they could have gotten - instead of the totally unrelated to their goals padding (called "requirements") that serve no purpose - other than justifying a salary to those professors who have tenure in relatively useless subjects.


Brian
 
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Doc Mark

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Brian,

Take everything you just wrote, but change the university metals & jewelry programs to Dental School, and all your statement still hold true. Ivory tower professors are a plague on true education. I'm sure there are innumerable professions that have this problem.
 
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Ron Spokovich

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It's just a thought, and I had success with the technique in the past, but I see a way to handle the stones for setting. I am NOT a gemsetter, but I've handled small lenses with the proper nozzle, and a small vacuum pump. Sometime, in laser/optical work, you need to handle small lenses that are nearly impossible to use tweezers on. The intake on an aquarium pump would probably work, if a small rubber/latex nozzle can be fitted to a tube, with a finger hole, that you can make up. In mind that 1 mm equals .03937", a small nozzle would be needed, and you'd need to see the edges for proper alignment. There are supply houses that sell replacement nozzles for such devices. Of course, larger stones wouldn't pose as much of a problem. It's just a thought, and I've used these things before.
 

Brian Marshall

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That tool has long since been stolen by the diamond "handlers", though I rarely see it being used.

Dealers mostly, since they don't want their goods smudged with wax and delicate colored stones can get scratches or chips from tweezers... not so important with setters as the finished piece goes though the ultrasonic and steamer after it is finished.


Brian
 

diandwill

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There really isn't as proficient a learning tool as having a beading tool insert itself deeply into your finger. That is a "light bulb" moment, and that is when the learning actually begins...at least in my opinion.
 

Brian Marshall

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Gravers run under the tendon in the back of your hand, through the web between forefinger and thumb, up under the thumbnail and deep into the joint of the forefinger knuckle are also "enlightening".

However, the one that will always remain quite clear in my mind - is the time a graver rolled off the bench and I instinctively caught it between my legs. Burying it to the "hilt" in my thigh muscle...

Not stuff you are gonna see or learn about on youtube. Only available to those who invest the 10,000 hours - as a vivid personal experience. A "reward" so to speak.

Though I have heard an occasional whispered cuss word on youtube, (in various languages) I've never seen what actually went wrong.


Brian


Dave (silverchip) has done extensive research on a form of "battle armor" consisting of a grotesque looking "glove" that he wears when he suspects that an injury may be in the offing.

I believe it has been posted on here sometime in the past. Perhaps someone has the time to go find it and post it on this thread?


My personal preference here of late has been to engrave naked, because these days my only remaining form of stimulation comes from an adrenaline rush - other "substances", even coffee, having recently been restricted or removed from my cage.
 
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dlilazteca

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Some are jusy stuck on the old tools, and apprenticeship programs, but more power to them, ive seen what grs classes can do, saves you years of the learning curve, the rest comes with experience and time, but very doable, not matter what naysayers do or say.

GunEngraver.com Guns, Knives & More
 

Brian Marshall

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Carlos,


Though youtube was brought up, classes and workshops hadn't been mentioned in this thread so far?

I teach them myself. In 2 very complete working shops (not a sterile environment) as well as a classroom.

The very first thing I tell basic students is this: "You will not leave here after taking this class or workshop and BE a goldsmith, silversmith, hand engraver or whatever. If you thought you would, please see Glenda for a complete refund before we go any further."

That can only come from the effort and time you invest after you leave here, not 5 days, 2 weeks, 3 months or even a year. There is no possible way for anyone to see, handle or work on the sheer quantity, quality and variety of items that may cross your bench in such a limited time.

40 Youtube videos or a coupla workshops or classes can't provide that. Only time does.


You have 2 years on the forum, the first six months or so spent acquiring tools. Shortly thereafter you were a gun engraver.

To my knowledge you have taken ONE GRS class - well publicized - and that came fairly recently, after your gunengraver website was up for well over a year...


GRS offers more instructors at one facility, but will not offer you a chance to try competitors tools side by side. Not in their best interest.

Neither I, nor most of the other "independent" engraving instructors are "connected" to any of the manufacturers, we don't get commissions - and we give students the opportunity to make their own decisions based on how the stuff works in their own hands and how it fits the work they want to produce as well as the level of experience they have at that moment.

Then they go buy it from whomever they wish. No salesmen. Once in a while we have used equipment that coincides with what they have decided they like, but I am not a "dealer" in any way and I don't think the other instructors are either?

I actually try to minimize and simplify the list of what is necessary to get the job done, whether it be goldsmithing, silversmithing, stonesetting, hand engraving or any other metalsmithing techniques. That list now includes 44 individual techniques.


We have every new tool that has ever been made... and quite a few prototypes that have never been released, (some that should never see the light of day, much less go to production) so you cannot pin the Luddite label on me. (Even though we do offer short term "live-in apprenticeships" of 2 to 6 months for those who are really serious - and don't mind a little indentured servitude)

Chris, who started this thread, is not likely using candles or an outhouse... at least not on a daily basis...?


Brian
 
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dlilazteca

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Brian,

The shoe fit as I can see, at times I find your one of those naysayers that says everything takes 20 years to learn, when in actuality you never stop learning, no matter if you've been doing it for 1 or 50 years you're always learning, everything is doable if you really apply yourself to it, some can have it in 6 months someone in five years but don't say that everything takes 10 years to learn, or somewhere to that effect.
Whether you like it or not there's the advent of the internet that you are using right now to communicate there's grs for example that speeds up the learning curve whether you like it or not. Just accept it. Instead of shooting people down on how long you think it should take, you should encourage to learn.

If I read that someone wanted to learn something I would congratulate them and let them know that there are classes such as grs out there, that will set them in the right path with proven tools regardless if they are the ones you prefer or not, that are proven, battle tested that will get the job done. Yes there is others but I'm not in the Army anymore in the Army if it was working we would break it to fix it this aint that situation anymore.

You have had this issue before with other people who have called you out on it, I think you should put a stop to it and grow up.

Here is where you write a response and change and manipulate your original thoughts that on one really cares about. I will take a grs class i will learn and i guarantee you it will not take 10 years to get proficient, not master level like Chris but good enough, the rest comes with time.

I'm off to watch a video on jewelry:D
 

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