Motorized/ Non-Motorized Pantograph

Choppers_rule · Nov 20, 2015

I have decided to look for a used pantograph for a more precise image design transfer on small objects and hopefully will also cut time on transferring process.

Questions:
1. Can the motorized version be used as a manual?
2. Is the vise exchangeable on the flat surface system so it can hold like a cylinder or gun barrel?

I'm thinking like a used New Hermes.
Thank you & have a great weekend everyone :thumbsup:

monk · Nov 20, 2015

most pantos will do both. some models WILL NOT accept a motor. it's usual to have a separate diamond drag unit to replace the motorized spindle. it's self-contained. in a pinch, the diamond point can just be inserted in the motorized spindle. just don't turn the power on. this way it will simply do diamond drag work.
short answer-- no. without a lot of modification, these vises will not hold anything other than thin, flat plates. in addition to the vise problem, you'll end up with a clearance problem. the machine can't be elevated sufficiently for the diamond or rotary tool to clear the work surface. flat bed machines are just for flat work.
most flat bed machines won't accept anything thicker than an inch or so at the most. it all depends on the specific model in question.

Choppers_rule · Nov 20, 2015

Thank you so much Monk! So the New Hermes TX or GTX-U models would suit my purpose right? They are so huge though lol

monk · Nov 20, 2015

Choppers_rule said:
Thank you so much Monk! So the New Hermes TX or GTX-U models would suit my purpose right? They are so huge though lol

the gtx will work. the tx-- send me a foto of the machine. i can answer the question then. pm or jayismonk450@gmail.com

peteb · Nov 21, 2015

Look at the Preis panto here at Gold Machinery.http://goldmachinery.com/?s=preis+panto These have a machine table that can accommodate bulkier items.

diandwill · Nov 21, 2015

The older, and larger Pantos would engrave bowls, cups and goblets...so some would do curved surfaces. We have one that is missing parts and is non functional in that capacity. It is an old one and Hermes wants us to ship it ti them to see what is missing and what needs work. Thats a lot of money just for an estimate, so haven't done it yet.

Choppers_rule · Nov 21, 2015

I just picked up the New Hermes gtx-u and have been scratching my head on how to lower the working vise. Seems like the jack only move the vise up not down.

Brian Marshall · Nov 22, 2015

There is a spring in it... you have to push it down

It may be sticky, depending on the age and how the machine was stored.

You may have to disassemble it, clean everything up.

Brian

Or maybe I am thinking of a different model? I have a GTX upstairs. I'll go look after breakfast....

Addertooth · Nov 22, 2015

I would suggest you look at online pictures of the New Hermes machine. You will likely be able to spot the differences yourself without the expense of shipping or an estimate. Then make snippets of the pictures of the parts you need. Send the snippets to New Hermes with a note which reads "how much for the pictured parts, for a model XXX?". Most New Hermes have the pantograph system bolted to a frame or a plate. Some people got more depth by using longer bolts with spacers to increase the vertical depth. Personally, I think the best pantagraphs/pantamills were made by Gorton. I used a Gorton side by side with New Hermes products. The Gorton pantamills were much stiffer, with less chassis flex. The New Hermes were mostly used for flat objects, but it did have the rotating surface vice which saw some use for cups. Cup work was typically a few characters at a time, the cup would be rotated, then a few more characters would be done.

monk · Nov 22, 2015

diandwill said:
The older, and larger Pantos would engrave bowls, cups and goblets...so some would do curved surfaces. We have one that is missing parts and is non functional in that capacity. It is an old one and Hermes wants us to ship it ti them to see what is missing and what needs work. Thats a lot of money just for an estimate, so haven't done it yet.

look on the bay, "used engraving tools". there's lots of panto stuff there right now. some are bargains, some total ripoffs ! if you send me a few fotos of your rig, perhaps i can tell what's needed.

Choppers_rule · Nov 23, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
There is a spring in it... you have to push it down

It may be sticky, depending on the age and how the machine was stored.

You may have to disassemble it, clean everything up.

Brian

Or maybe I am thinking of a different model? I have a GTX upstairs. I'll go look after breakfast....

Thank you Brian. Monk told me to push the lever in the other direction & it works! Now....I need to learn how to use it.

Brian Marshall · Nov 23, 2015

Though there may be a youtube video for the basics, I can't imagine that one exists that covers all the possible ways these machines can be used to aid the hand engraver?

Some you will discover on your own, some you may get on this forum, and maybe there is some kind of group or forum based on pantograph users?

There are tricks to using them on compound curved surfaces.

You can use the motorized/cutter models to help with the grunt work of inlaying letters and removing backgrounds.

They are used for scribing patterns and lettering through resists for etching purposes - both electro-etched or acid etched.

You can use them with reversed masters to lay out and sometimes even to cut steel stamps, as in makers marks.

You can use them to make brass templates that are then smoked or inked and transferred to use as lettering guides for hand drawn letters. As is seen in the Lynton McKenzie videos...

In short, they are very handy, time saving tools for hand engravers, that I almost never see utilized in ALL the ways that they could be...

Probably because most hand engravers never get to see one displayed, used or discussed in a classroom or workshop setting?

The only place you see them is in working studios...

Brian

Most engravers on this forum will not bother to look at this thread because of the title of the thread.

You still see people looking at them as only what they were designed for. Which was simply primitive machine assisted engraving. Plus they are now categorized as "old school" and once something (be it tool or technique) gets that label - no one looks further. At least not these days...

monk · Nov 23, 2015

Choppers_rule said:
I just picked up the New Hermes gtx-u and have been scratching my head on how to lower the working vise. Seems like the jack only move the vise up not down.

its's old style automobile bumper jack. there's a small lever on one side. flip the lever. the jack will then lower. flip switch again and it will raise. beware the vise and way bar are kind of heavy.

monk · Nov 23, 2015

diandwill said:
The older, and larger Pantos would engrave bowls, cups and goblets...so some would do curved surfaces. We have one that is missing parts and is non functional in that capacity. It is an old one and Hermes wants us to ship it ti them to see what is missing and what needs work. Thats a lot of money just for an estimate, so haven't done it yet.

send a few clear fotos of the unit. front, side & from the top. i may be able to determine what the machine needs to be in operation.

Choppers_rule · Nov 23, 2015

monk said:
its's old style automobile bumper jack. there's a small lever on one side. flip the lever. the jack will then lower. flip switch again and it will raise. beware the vise and way bar are kind of heavy.

Yes, thank you Monk....the GTX is way heavier than the TX. I picked up both but may get rid of the TX since I really don't have room for both.

Choppers_rule · Nov 23, 2015

Brian, exactly why I bought the panto even though I have no clue how to use it

. I visited a master gun engraver here in town and he is so in love with the machine, so I decided to get one and will learn how to use it pretty soon.

Brian Marshall · Nov 23, 2015

Good on you. It will put you far ahead of those who don't bother to read threads with titles unfamiliar to them....

Number one rule: If it saves you time and can give you as good or better a result as you were getting before - at least LEARN ABOUT IT.

Then use it if it fits in with the work you do.

Brian

Brian Marshall · Nov 23, 2015

Just went on Ebay... there are some very nice Gorton, Deckel and Pries machines that will definitely do any firearm (rifle, pistol or shotgun) transferring or lettering. $850 to $1,500 price range - a few minutes ago.

You just need to be lucky and find one close enough to your location so you can go pick it up yourself. Shipping these is not cheap.

AND, you have to have the space and a floor strong enough to support 'em. These are not jewelry size pantographs!

I helped move one into a basement shop for Victor Vasquez. We had to take it apart to get 'er done...

Brian

Roger B · Nov 23, 2015

I've been reading this thread with interest having just bought a Taylor Hobson Model D (floor standing) and trading some engraving for a Taylor Hobson Model A (bench standing). This make uses tapered cutters rather than the more common straight ones. I was able to order spare parts from England and after waiting 5 weeks for the parcel to arrive through Royal Mail I was advised that this was one of the rare deliveries with which there had been a problem and that the parcel had been returned to the sender (via Ireland) after getting as far as Saudi Arabia. Six days after it had been sent the second time it arrived and I realized that I had not ordered any cutters! This should be no problem for a little while as, like some of the others here, I have to learn how to use the machines otherwise they will be turned into anchors.:clapping:

For those interested there is a Yahoo group for pantograph engravers.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Pantograph_Engravers/conversations/topics

Roger

Addertooth · Nov 23, 2015

The cutters are a simple single flute vertical cutter. The outside has a bit of a relief cut so that the edge makes contact with the engraved surface. They are the kind of part which can be easily fabricated with tool steel rod and a grinder.
I have years on these machines, and they were not hard to master, back when I started using them around age 16.

Motorized/ Non-Motorized Pantograph

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