Buyer beware

Dani Girl said:

I have seen chinese knock off vises up close, they are not as smooth as american ones. It is worth the extra money if you intend to be at all serious.

I can't remember for sure but I think they even put the GRS logo on the vise, don't quote me though I have the memory of a goldfish.

Save up and buy the real gear though for sure.

Thanks for posting this 'buyers beware'.

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Yes, some copy everything and make counterfeits, and some copy everything but change the name to CRS in order to fool the buyers and avoid legal issues. They are bottom dwellers.

As for smoothness, a vise that lacks smooth rotation has zero value to an engraver. In fact it's laughable that it could even leave the factory in that condition, but the people who cobble this crap together aren't engravers so they don't really know what they're making or how it's supposed to function. The people who get stung are the buyer who is trying to save money and the manufacturer whose products are pirated.

sam said:

The people who get stung are the buyer who is trying to save money and the manufacturer whose products are pirated.

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China, and a few other places, are doing knockoffs of just about everything you can think of and, have no qualms about it whatsoever. My wife had be order her a "Coach" purse from a website a few years ago. Everything looked legitimate on the website so I ordered it out. The crudely done knockoff arrived all folded up and smashed into an envelope from China. That was my life lesson with Chinese knockoff crap. If the price is too good to be true, it's likely a fake.

I bought a Surefire tactical light on eBay a few years ago and then found out even those are being faked in China. I had the factory verify (through a bunch of photos) that it was indeed a real one. That was a relief! (The lesson learned is you are better off buying something from a legitimate dealer or distributor.)

It's anyone's guess how much they hurt the world's economy. Any container ship from China should be rejected at the port by the Harbor Master. If China won't regulate it... we should. In many ways, it's our own fault.

If Americans bought 'Made In America' and insisted that the stores they shop at carried them, spent a few extra dollars...soon enough we wouldn't have to turn ships from China away. There would be none because they would sell no product!

Similar things have happened to me, Doc. I purchased a Sandisk jump drive on eBay a few years ago. When it wouldn't hold data, I contacted Sandisk tech support. The asked for the serial number and come to find out it was counterfeit. Very convincing packaging and everything. The eBay seller was horrified because everyone he'd sold them to was asking for a refund. He was just reselling what he thought was a legitimate product (or so he says, but I believed him).

Then I bought an expensive Sony camcorder battery that was a very obvious counterfeit. The seller played stupid and couldn't understand what I was talking about. Got my money back on that one too, but only after I took a photo of it and overlaid text on the photo that said COUNTERFEIT SONY BATTERY SOLD BY [ebay seller's name] and sent it to him. That got his attention and the refund was instantaneous.

I'm pretty well connected with manufacturers in the jewelry industry, and I can tell you that counterfeiting is rampant. Much more so than any of us are aware of. China is out of control.

BUY AMERICAN!!!! learn to read bar codes, in every place you shop. American workers are cost competive producing high qualitywork.

Chinese knockoffs can be a real problem. I have worked in engineering for many years, and have been involved in the filing of patents as well. An American patent is in force (and enforceable) for 20 years from the initial filing. However, it is the burden of the patent holder to initiate the action with customs. Logos on purses are copyrighted, and not patented. This makes it a bit easier for customs to spot a clear violation without the owner of the intellectual property being involved. Mechanical devices are patented by function and normally not patented for the "look and feel" of the device. Even Harley-Davidson had to Copyright (as versus patent) their "unique sound" to protect what they viewed at their intellectual property. This can make it more difficult for a patent/royalty violation to be spotted by customs without disassembly. If the Chinese find a patent which is 20 years and one second old, they can produce it with impunity. GRS, as a company started around 1977; about 38 years ago. Under patent law, this makes designs from the first 18 years of the company fair prey to the Chinese copy-cats. In short, if the Chinese limit themselves to older successful designs (without regard to the type of case they put the older hardware in), they are not interceptable by customs. However, if the copycats incorporate design enhancements (which have been patented by GRS in the past 20 years), they are in violation. Should this be the case, GRS needs to take the steps to start enforcement of the violated enforceable patent. Keep in mind that patent infringement is not a uniquely Chinese problem. Read the Lindsay website on the "palm control" products. They feel they have the initial patent, and claim another well-reputed American company is borrowing their design without paying the appropriate royalties.
The 20 year term on patents is very reasonable; it gives the patent holders the reasonable chance to recoup the non-recurring engineering costs for their unique design. However, with a 20 year limit, it encourages additional (patented) improvements to maintain market edge. It also keeps companies from eternally blocking free market competition. If GRS has a current enforceable patent being violated by the Chinese, I would openly encourage them to pursue action within the full extent of the law. Overall, the design of many types of engraving equipment seems amazingly primitive, and they do not take significant advantage of reasonable advances in technology. I was shocked to see a rotary valve was actually used in many of the designs (the rotary valve was patented almost a century ago). The lack of electronic feedback from the handpiece to the controller also seems very antiquated, as a closed loop system would create more repeatable and predictable behavior across a variety of air pressures. It is almost humorous that handpieces have a "tuning" procedure. The reliance upon hoses to the handpieces or pedal to adjust strike force is like something out of the 60's. Control designs like that grew out of the mining and petroleum industries (spark free) from long ago. There is room for new patents, which would launch companies like GRS and Lindsay into an untouchable position for another 20 years.

You’re absolutely right. Over 20 years and a patented design becomes part of the public domain and anyone can make it. The system is designed to operate that way.

I don’t think there’s a problem with GRS patent infringement (although I don’t know what’s patented and what’s not). But the bottom dwellers HAVE copied trade names, etc, and THAT’S a violation. And then it comes down to do you want to support a company that makes first class products and has put a lot of resources into promoting the art and helping it to get where it is today, or do you want to save $100 and support a counterfeiter that reverse engineers someone else’s hard work and has nothing of himself in it, which most likely is an unpredictable and inferior product?

Making an engraving vise with a red CRS disc label is just sleazy, pure and simple and it’s designed to fool the buyer. Copying a Lindsay handpiece and engraving Lindsey (with an “e”) would be equally sleazy.

Back during the infamous tool wars, many forum members suddenly became patent experts and proclaimed this or that. Engraver one day, patent expert the next. Thankfully we’ve put that nonsense behind us. I don’t know if it’s Apple or Samsung that’s guilty or Canon or Nikon or Ford or Chevy. I just attempt to make pretty designs on metal.

Sam, pretty designs on metal if you will recall an old post from Phil Coggan he came across a gun that he thought he had done, copied cut for cut. Nothing is protected in this high tech days.

Doppelmayr – The world’s largest lift manufacturer, is headquartered in Wolfurt, Austria. On your continent this company has facilities in St. Jerome, Quebec and Salt Lake City, Utah.
Here you can read that the Chinese as well copy bigger things than small ball vices: http://liftblog.com/2015/06/29/counterfeit-lifts-in-north-korea/

Martin Strolz said:

Doppelmayr – The world’s largest lift manufacturer, is headquartered in Wolfurt, Austria. On your continent this company has facilities in St. Jerome, Quebec and Salt Lake City, Utah.
Here you can read that the Chinese as well copy bigger things than small ball vices: http://liftblog.com/2015/06/29/counterfeit-lifts-in-north-korea/

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That reminds me of when Nikita Khrushchev visited the US and they basically raided our patent office taking home thousands of things they wanted to make. We even gave them helicopters so they could reverse engineer them. Up until that point the Russians couldn't make one work.

And the fact of the matter is...

That WE taught the Chinese to do this.

Simple greed. All about money.

Americans (and the world in general) want to pay less. (thinking they'll somehow "get" more?)

American companies (tool companies and importers) want to make more and more money.

Chinese have the cheap labor and resources.

In return they required America and other countries that wanted to profit from Chinese resources to furnish them with the technological knowledge - in trade, so to speak.

We DID that. As did other countries.

Then we whine about the results... of OUR societies greed.

This is called hypocrisy in most dictionaries, is it not? And something similar in most other languages as well...


Brian


Which of you has NO Chinese products in your shop or house? Stand up and be counted! (I certainly cannot)

Ask yourself why that is? Are you part of the problem or the solution or just riding the fence?

Is there a "solution" - at this late date?

What would you find if ALL of the tool manufacurers and suppliers in the USA mentioned in this thread divulged the original sources of the components you buy - especially the companies that you assume "make" everything the USA? I can tell you, and I think you actually know... or maybe don't really care?

I guess we're all part of the problem as long as we buy things marked MADE IN CHINA. If you could push a button and make every Chinese-made item in Wal-Mart disappear, you'd have a vast, empty building. Same goes for most stores. As it is now we're in so deep that it's unavoidable, or nearly so.

We are not the only ones thinking about this problem- The Italian philosopher Gloria Origgi coined the term "Kakonomics" to describe the strange preference for low quality outcomes, how we expect others to give of their very best but we do not want to give of our best in return (eg our dollars) and so create a perpetuating wasteland of mediocrity.
I can't get on a high horse about it, half the tools and machines in my workshop are imported and I would not pay $160.00 for a 6 metre length of solid round bar when I could get it for $55.00 so now we have no steel industry to speak of in Oz. Blatant counterfeiting is not the same thing but in a broader sense there are common roots
Steve

Yep, "common roots"...

Where do you suppose most of the metal and plastic tubing, sheet metal, bar stock, castings, molded plastic parts, screws, rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, originate these days?

Our companies may "make" (more like assemble) some parts - but where did the materials and components come from?

I posted quite some time back, my surprise - when I received a replacement motor for a GRS power hone - labeled "Hecho En Mexico"... the hone case is labeled "Made in USA".

B.

Brian Marshall said:

Yep, "common roots"...

Where do you suppose most of the metal and plastic tubing, sheet metal, bar stock, castings, molded plastic parts, screws, rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, originate these days?

Our companies may "make" (more like assemble) some parts - but where did the materials and components come from?

I posted quite some time back, my surprise - when I received a replacement motor for a GRS power hone - labeled "Hecho En Mexico"... the hone case is labeled "Made in USA".

B.

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My thoughts also & how many products that say MADE in THE USA are actually American owned companies?..... pride in one's work used to be more prevelant, welcome to the global economy.

On the plus side, in the wake of all of the mediocre stuff from overseas, there seems to be an increasing boutique demand for beautiful hand crafted things, such as engraving. People with disposable income seem to yearn for something which has some actual craftsmanship in it.

On a brighter note Steel is still made in the USA. Since 1872 the Egdar Thompson Works , in Braddock PA. I worked in the rolling mill circa 1970. I never did find the spent bullets or cases, Fisk must have policed them up

Dave London said:

On a brighter note Steel is still made in the USA.

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Mostly not though. When I was living in the Quad Cities back in the 80's, a high rise building was constructed. Did they get the steel from 200 miles to the east? No, it was cheaper to bring it all the way from Korea. The real root of it all lies in the fact that union labor has priced us out of almost every market. Even the janitors want to drive Cadillacs. If it can be done cheaper with slave labor, it will be... and is.

Addertooth said:

On the plus side, in the wake of all of the mediocre stuff from overseas, there seems to be an increasing boutique demand for beautiful hand crafted things, such as engraving. People with disposable income seem to yearn for something which has some actual craftsmanship in it.

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My Daddy used to say "Its an ill wind that blows nobody any good". Yes I have noticed in my little part of the world a slight increase in business over the last ten years. I also credit cheap air fares for that as well - people go to old European countries which have a very long tradition of excellence in the arts and crafts, come back here and suddenly have a vocabulary to describe that gnawing sense that something is not quite right with their environment
Steve

Addertooth said:

On the plus side, in the wake of all of the mediocre stuff from overseas, there seems to be an increasing boutique demand for beautiful hand crafted things, such as engraving. People with disposable income seem to yearn for something which has some actual craftsmanship in it.

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Indeed! And this brings hope! There's a huge demand for finely crafted things like mechanical watches, handmade bamboo fly rods, fine custom knives, etc. Many people enjoy owning fine things made by master craftsmen, and maybe the mass produced mediocrity from Chinese sweatshops has fueled this demand. I suspect it has.