Why ???

SamW

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I use two forms of dubbing...as above when I want a V shaped cut as in shading...or dub the heel by making it round bottomed instead of V shaped (very small amount) for background removal and such. I occasionally get a point that keeps on ticking like a Timex and I hate it when it finally gives up. If I could figure out just what I did to make it last so long I could make a fortune!
 

atexascowboy2011

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And as to dubbing on a ceramic ?
A ceramic is for polishing.
A sharp graver, point down "with Pressure" is going to play H... with a ceramic stone!
 

Sam

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And as to dubbing on a ceramic ?
A ceramic is for polishing.
A sharp graver, point down "with Pressure" is going to play H... with a ceramic stone!

Ceramic is fine. I've used it for many years. You shouldn't use enough downward pressure to damage ceramic. Dubbing is a very gentle swipe of the point and/or rounding of the bottom V.
 

tim halloran

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Cowboy: Do your dubbing up close to the spindle. When dubbing I only pull the tip less than a quarter of an inch. Your doing this to strengthen the tip, as carbide will fracture easily if you leave a sharp point on it. Some people leave a sharp point on carbide tools, but only for shading where your not putting a lot of Side pressure on the tip. Most of the carbide we use for engraving today is micro grain and is made for interrupted cut applications in machine shops. Also some carbide tooling has been alloyed with Cobalt for toughness and so that it will tolerate higher temperatures.
 

atexascowboy2011

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Thanks Tim, but I'm sticking with the method handed down to me from others who learned under Hendricks and Boessler as it works for me.
The dubbing on a Ruby the way I was taught does create a pretty good sized face, NOT microscopic, as others have stated, and is the actual cutting face whether or not others are willing to admit it.

Having dug out my Turpin book last night and looking again at Boessler's gravers, I stand by each and every statement that I have made in this thread.
 

zzcutter

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Frank Hendricks, method was to put the graver at 90degrees on a 600 or higher stone and using just the wieght of the graver itself and make the smallest of a W motion one time and that was it point dubbed
 

Sam

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The bottom line is whatever works for you is what you should be doing. Ask 50 engravers how to sharpen, dub, undercut, or whatever, and you'll get 100 different answers. :confused:
 

Phil Coggan

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The bottom line is whatever works for you is what you should be doing. Ask 50 engravers how to sharpen, dub, undercut, or whatever, and you'll get 100 different answers. :confused:

Are we talking, brain surgery here Sam, or astrophysics :rolleyes:
 

Brian Marshall

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I have often wondered if painters have the same discussions on the brands and points/tips of their brushes as engravers do on essentially the same thing?


To me it all seems to come down to whether you HAVE a customer, the customer PAYS for what you can do... and you get to eat - or pay the bills for another month.


The majority of engravers doing the arguing don't earn their meals from engraving....

Personally, I put more value on the opinions and advice of those who do.


Brian
 
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Big-Un

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I've found that when two people are together discussing a subject, there is a minimum of three opinions.

Bill
 

zzcutter

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I for one never dub my point and I mainly engrave Hard stuff. This is one of these threads that should be used for target practice. LOL
 

Sam

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Everything was fine until those dang adjustable sharpening fixtures came along where we could dial-in and change graver geometry one degree at a time!

I'll also admit that the nerd in me is curious about the angles and how they affect the behavior of the tool :cool:

I spoke to Winston recently about gravers and sharpening and he was talking about his preference for onglette shaped gravers, and how sometimes you'd sharpen them perfectly and sometimes not. Hand sharpening that shape is hit or miss, but a pro like Winston can fix the miss and turn it into a hit in short order.
 

Phil Coggan

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I used "angle iron engineering" for a long time Sam, I would hold the graver up to the grinding wheel until I got what looked to me like the right angle, if I decided I wanted it shallower for a wider cut I would tilt it a tad...I guess around 10.375 deg more or maybe 10.376 deg as that change from 5 to 6 made all the difference :rolleyes:

Phil
 

Crazy Horse

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Dubbing the point is similar to a machinist using a "Negative Rake" carbide insert in a Shell Mill cutter. As someone else pointed out, a dubbed tool pushes metal rather than cutting it as does a "Negative Rake" tool.

But just for kicks, I've got a Carbolt tool that I sharpened to an Onglette (Fish belly) shape that must have a "Sweet Spot" as it seems to stay sharp forever. Other cutters of the same material I've had to re-sharp several times, but this particular tool seems to stay sharp. Anyone else ever experience this phenomenon?
 

Sam

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Dubbing the point is similar to a machinist using a "Negative Rake" carbide insert in a Shell Mill cutter. As someone else pointed out, a dubbed tool pushes metal rather than cutting it as does a "Negative Rake" tool.

But just for kicks, I've got a Carbolt tool that I sharpened to an Onglette (Fish belly) shape that must have a "Sweet Spot" as it seems to stay sharp forever. Other cutters of the same material I've had to re-sharp several times, but this particular tool seems to stay sharp. Anyone else ever experience this phenomenon?

I believe an onglette shape could be stronger than a V graver with flat sides.
 

atexascowboy2011

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Now that the dust has settled, I've got a couple of things I'd like y'all to educate me on.

First for Southern Custom.
You stated that my 80° face is cutting, THEN the 55° portion of the face finishes cutting.
Being slow country folk, I have always been taught that unless you back out of a cut and start over there is only one cut.
How can the curl lay down and be cut by the 55° remaining face ?

ZZ Cutter
Putting a graver point , point down against a 600 piece of sandpaper is only going to result in ripping the paper, not to mention not having any effect on the point since there is no downward pressure.

The same goes for "Touching" the point to a ceramic lap. Nothing happens except to groove your lap.

I looked at the machinist's angle chart a few minutes ago, just to get reinforcement and someone needs to have a talk with those folk.
They had numerous cutting tools in the 75-85° face angle range. Someone needs to tell them that they can't be doing this ! ;)/SIZE]
 

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