Newbie introduction

Addertooth

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Far Southern AZ
I appreciate all of the great information found in this forum. To a newbie it is invaluable. Over the past few days I have read through a lot of what this forum offers, and it represents a great kick-start for people, who like me, know little about the nuances of hand engraving.
I am a self-professed hobby-0-holic. My typical pattern is to learn and struggle with a new hobby, start with basic tools, slowly advance and upgrade my tools as my skills merit. I have, in the past, started some hobbies with the highest end tool/goodies, only to realize I dramatically over-invested for my given skill level. And although the great tools allowed me to progress at a faster rate, in the end I felt it was more the tools than my native skill which advanced me.
Back 40 years ago, when I started knife making, it was started on a fan motor with an arbor which supported a basic grinding and buffing wheel. The motor would overheat after 15 minutes of grinding and would need to rest for a half hour. But, concepts such as straight grind lines, clean hollow grinds, working with the correct area of the wheel and basic safety were learned. Fit and finish concepts were taught well on such basic equipment. Later an Olympic square wheel sander was purchased, a real knife maker's tool. Everything was easier on it. It was easier to get clean lines, rapidly remove stock, and get precise shaping with less effort. It was faster. As a high schooler, I worked as a "machine" diamond stylus engraver, not what I consider true engraving. After high school I worked as a machinist, so the free-hand engraving of cutting tools was a well learned skill.
Over the years I have learned that very few tools come off the factory floor as I like them. It is very commonplace for me to highly modify tools to match the purpose. Enhancements of tools which are close to the mark is common as well.
Along comes hand engraving...
I didn't start this interest directly. I recently have started down the path of restoring and upgrading swords made by others. This work mostly leveraged skills which had already been established when making knives, just on a larger scale. However, I saw areas where the results could be enhanced by hand engraving. Frequently some of the details on old swords are very worn. For example, the handle decorations (menuki) on Japanese swords would be worn to the point where they could not be recognized. I realized some modest re-shaping, and re-application of the appropriate patina would really enhance them. The blade collar on the swords (habaki) would frequently have similar issues. It was clear there was a useful niche for engraving skills as it applies to either upgrading or restoring swords.
I have read the threads on equipment. There is the general consensus that the Chinese knock-offs are a bad choice. What is unclear is the specific problem areas with the knock offs. For example: Is the stroke length adjustments problematic? Is the hammer rate problematic? Do the hand pieces have a problem with the piston seizing? Do the units fail after a couple hours of use? Do they use a lot more air? etc.. ..
A lot of these kinds of problems can be remedied, some cannot. Are the knock offs worse than starting with a graver and a chasing hammer? At this early stage, I don't feel the need for a machine which is a 100 times better than my basic skill.
Yes, I am aware we have used units for sell on this forum. The 800-1500 used prices are a bit steep for the "learning phase" which I am currently in. I have no problem with spending that much money, once my skill merits it, but for now my skill would not demand such tooling.
Where I am at today:
The goal is to develop the skill over the next decade, so when I retire some supplemental income can be earned.
 

diandwill

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
864
Location
Eastern, Washington State
Welcome to the forum! Many will be pleased that you looked around a bit first, I'm just glad you made it.

I don't know about the knock-offs working ability, all I have heard is that they aren't as good. What I do know is that the GRS, Lindsay and Enset are American made!

If money is not too big a challenge, the best place to start is with lessons. Depending on where you are, they can be near or far. Mine cost about $2000 for a week at GRS, including airfair, motel and car rental. It sounds like a lot, but it literally will take years off the learning curve, and may be enough to justify the more expensive set up from the start.

Glad you made it, and I look forward to seeing your progress.
 

monk

Moderator
Staff member
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
10,857
Location
washington, pa
welcome to the forum. sounds like you may have found a home. the knockoffs are quite suitable to use-- that is when they work. more often than not, they have a habit of not working. one thing about h&c-- may be slower, but the equipment never breaks down, works during a power failure, and the initial equipment can be made from old triangular files and such. somewhere in the archive are fotos of the hammers i use-- old automobile engine valves welded onto steel shafts, thence inserted into old file handles.
ultimately, the choices you end up with will likely be determined by what you wish to engrave, as well as how much work you intend to produce. h & c work as practiced today, remains to be amongst the finest engraving done anywhere.
the skill lieth not in the tool, but the hand that tells it what to do !!! good luck, and enjoy the journey.
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
Welcome to the Cafe. You sound like an interesting guy and you'll really enjoy hand engraving.

As for knock-offs, I suspect you won't get much sympathy from members on that subject. Many of us have been decades long friends, associates, and teachers for the American companies that have helped forge the way to where we are now, and have supported the art in so many ways. The Chinese ripoff companies simply reverse engineer someone else's hard work and make a cheaper and inferior product.

If you want to discuss GRS, Lindsay, or Enset, you'll find many members who will bend over backwards to give you help and advice.

Once again, welcome to the Cafe and we're pleased to have you as a member. :tiphat:
 

Addertooth

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Far Southern AZ
Diandwill,
I have found a highly reputed engraver who only lives 3.5 hours away. We have already negotiated for a 6 hour Saturday session. It is a bit of money, but probably well worth it for a 1 on 1 session. I took it as the gospel when I read "lessons take years off the learning curve".
 

Roger B

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
350
Location
Adelaide, South Australia
Addertooth,

Classes are a great start - even better if the tutor has a range of products you can try.

Money is not the only factor when it comes to choosing which path to follow - time is another thing to consider. I think many on the fora you read will agree that the power tools allow a shorter learning curve - that is not to say that you will not pick up H & C easily - personally I found it a little harder to co-ordinate the two tools and working the shape in the design at the same time - but then again, practice makes perfect.

When it comes time to purchasing your tools whether they be for air or H & C (or even push for that matter) I would generally steer clear of the "traditionally" shaped gravers and go for the long square shaped gravers as they will fit the sharpening templates or devices that you might choose to use (sharpening is another skill to learn if you choose not to use these tools). If you choose to start with H & C and later move to air tools the gravers are transferable.

Good luck with your new hobby,

Roger
 

Addertooth

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Far Southern AZ
The instructor has a wide variety of tools. I suspect he makes a fair percent of his income conducting classes.
Normally, he has the students fly in, and he teaches them for a week, but this will not fit within my current lifestyle.
He agreed to hold Saturday classes when I explained to him my work situation.
As for the blades, I have ordered:
Knife edge
Round edge
Onglette
Flat-square edge
90 degree bevel
GMT
Antilope knife
Glardon knife
At this point, I don't have a clear image of what eventual equipment I want, but it is a start.
 

Roger B

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
350
Location
Adelaide, South Australia
These tools will work but as I said they won't fit the guides which are designed to make sharpening easier. The knife gravers are just different brands. Hope you have some handles to go with the gravers.

Roger
 

Doc Mark

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
1,284
Location
Hampton, Virginia
Welcome Addertooth. It would be helpful if you would add your location on your profile. You might have someone living very close to you with invaluable information.
 

Addertooth

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Far Southern AZ
Done, profile now shows far southern Arizona. I am literally 14 miles from the Mexican border, about an hour South and East of Tucson.
 
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