Curious... about the final steps everyone else sharpens in?

Brian Marshall

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First off I'm only referring to "V" and flat graver geometries with parallel heels here - not bright cut, liners, specialty or "trick" gravers...


I have always done the final polish to the heel facet(s) LAST. With a powered lap. (Well, at least since powered laps were stolen from the lapidary trade and adapted to ours)

THEN, depending on the intended use, stropped it lightly on leather with whatever compound matches the alloy.

Been way too many years to try and remember where that may have come from?

Best guess would be Victor Vasquez - in the late 60's or early 70's? (He didn't have a powered lap, would've done his by hand, and he did strop the heel afterwards)



Does anyone on this forum polish the face facet LAST? On a hone or with a strop?

If so, what's the logic behind that and where did you pick up that method?


Those few gravers that I have seen with face facet(s) stropped on leather - were rounded over from heavily stropping both the heel and the face on the softer leather.

They no longer had the crisp edge and sharp corners I prefer. Not something I would like - personally... and I don't see the logic.


If someone on here does this face polishing last or strops the face last - please enlighten me... I'm always learning.


Brian


And yes, I am one of those who swears by using a lubricant. And yes, I know it's a PITA. What can I say...?

Again that varies according to the metals, the person doing the engraving, skill level, astrological sign and the phase of the moon. There ain't no "one size fits all".
 
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FANCYGUN

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Brian
I use a power hone and usually if I am resharpening I'm using a 1200 wheel
I do the face first with power to where I see a sharp point and then I do each parallel heel without power by just a quick swipe back and forth on the same wheel. I don't strop I just poke the tip of the graver into my wood bench. For C-mac I polish the face with a ceramic wheel and then do the heels with power.
Seems to usually work :tiphat:
Marty
 

Brian Marshall

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I do the same Marty, but use the ceramic & magic diamond dust on all graver alloys because I work mostly in precious metals.

And I do the wood poking thing too. Left over from the hand pushed carbon and high speed gravers of yesteryear... even though I'm pretty sure it does nothing for the carbide alloys.

You get into habits. Voodoo or whatever?

After stabbing the wood - if I need a (mythically?) higher polish for the job - I'll strop lightly...


But I've never stropped a face on leather, and I've seen a couple show up in the classroom done that way lately. (Not done here) Pretty obvious under the scope.

I am trying to understand why that might be of use? Or what advantage there might be in polishing the face last...


Brian


Interesting fact: I have 3 gravers that are ground for a special job that we do in platinum only. Each piece MUST always look identical, so those gravers are always the same geometry and always put away packed in a corked tube with the company name on it. Only ever taken out to do that job.

They are one of the carbide alloys. It has been 7 years so far... and not one has ever been resharpened. But platinum is soft and there are no diamonds to crash into on these products.

Looking at them under the scope, I don't think that they'll ever need to be resharpened during my lifetime!
 
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Ray Cover

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If all I am doing is resharpening an existing graver that dulled during use, I don't really have a set order. For me it really depends on the situation. IF I am shading and just need a "fresh bite" for starting fine lines I may not even touch the face just hit the heels on either a 2000 grit diamond bench stone or sometimes the ceramic stone. If I actually broke the point I will grind the face back on the flat diamond stone and then touch up the heels. I never polish anymore unless I am actually bright cutting and I never stab wood with my graver. I go straight from the diamond sharpening stone to the job.

I agree with you that with the modern alloys stabbing wood isn't needed unless it just makes you feel good. I rarely use anything but HSS and M42 as a graver material. I actually don't like the modern carbide alloys. I find them way too brittle and I can't keep them sharp. I will get a lot more mileage out of a good m42 than I will a cmax or carbalt. I never get enough of a grinding bur on any of them to bother me while I am cutting.
 

Brian Marshall

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Hey Ray, Welcome back! Where've you been hiding out at?


Stabbing things without going to jail for it - has a certain appeal... also a healthier way to relieve stress than some "other things" commonly resorted to. Gotta try to stay healthy, right?


Yep, about 80% M42 and maybe 20% one of the carbide alloys on my bench too. The carbides may be a wee bit oversold? When you need 'em, nuthin' else works, but I don't need 'em that often either.

HSS is in my push gravers mostly, which I haven't been able to push for many years now... and carbon steel in the liners, which also don't see much use anymore...


Brian
 
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Sam

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I polish heels on a cast iron lap with diamond powder. Sometimes I polish the face because it looks really nice but I'm not sure it accomplishes anything other than it makes me feel good. I'm a carbide guy for most work and I only bright polish gravers when I need sparkly cuts in jewelry engraving. For everything else 1200 grit diamond is sufficient.
 

Brian Marshall

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You guys are missing what I'm after....

I have had a few people show up with gravers sharpened where you can see under the scope that the face was the last facet applied. And once or twice that face was stropped on leather too.


Personally, I see no advantage to that, but if there is - let's hear about it.

I just can't see one...


B.
 
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quickcut07

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Brian I work the face on the original dress of the graver. On touch ups I hit the just the heel with 2000 than ceramic using stones. I tried the leather stop many years ago but could not control its action, smoothed edges. Originally this was only done because I was led to believe that is what the pros used. As I said lack of control or softness of the leather did not give the results I liked. I should say that if the leading edge has been damaged (face) than I go through the hole process. HSS and M42 are the preferred choice but I do use carbide once in a while.

Eric
 

Sam

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When sharpening I sharpen the face first then the heel. If I polish the face it's normally after the heel is polished, but there's no particular reason for that. Just the way I do it. So for me it's sharpen face > sharpen heel > polish heel > polish face. I should probably sharpen & polish the face and then sharpen & polish the heel.

One student said "Not polishing the face is like only sharpening one side of your knife blade".

Prior to the cast iron lap I would strop the heels first and then the face on a piece of leather. If bits of metal stick to the graver I occasionally do that instead of taking a trip back to the sharpening station. Stropping on leather does tend to round off edges but if kept to a minimum I haven't noticed that it makes much difference in my work.

Do you use diamond powder, Brian? If not I'll send you some.
 

Belprime

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This may or may not make a difference in sharpening gravers. Some wood carvers use a piece of cereal box cardboard. Apply your favorite compound and strop away. It's cheap, easy to replace and doesn't round over the edge of your carving knife like leather can do. I prefer it to a leather strop.
 

Brian Marshall

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So you have stropped the face on leather?

I've only ever done the heels with leather - AFTER finishing the face and then the heel(s) up to whatever level the job requires with a powerhone.

Sometimes worn out 1,200, sometimes 50,000 grit diamond...


On the diamond grit, thanks Sam, but I was a also a lapidary in one of my earlier incarnations - kinda like Doc...

All of us have several tons of rough "gemstone" material sitting in various places around the yard, under the sink, the bed, in the closets, attics and basements.

We just couldn't leave it lying around for someone else as dumb as we were to find it and load up truckloads of the stuff...


Once upon a time it seemed like a good idea(?), so we stocked up on laps and diamond grits of all kinds. After all, we were gonna live off the stones. So we thought.


Then the Chinese came along and took over the lapidary market.

After that came the "recession/depression" - which is still goin' on to this day - though the govt. claims it's not.



So we still have 99.999999999% of all of it to this day...


Brian
 
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Sam

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Yep, I've stropped the face and heels on hard leather treated with diamond powder or spray (powder being better). It'll clean off bits of metal that cold weld to the graver when brightcutting around stones or brightcutting lettering.

FWIW, Alexandre Siderov sharpens 100% using yellow wheels on a flex shaft. The facets on his gravers (face and heels) are slightly rounded and they cut superbly.
 

Ray Cover

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I agree with you Brian there is no real need for it. The only surface the face comes in contact with when cutting is the chip that falls to the floor. Who cares if that is shiny? It is the finish on the heel that leaves a trace in the cut left behind.

The only argument that I can think of behind polishing the face is an attempt to add strength by removing any score likes that could potentially become the start of a break on the face. Like a score line on glass can become the start of a break. Frankly, a polish is not needed. merely removing any course grind lines will accomplish the same thing. Like Sam I rarely take that surface any finer than 1200 grit. All you need to keep a fracture point from forming is a smooth surface. It does not need an actual polish.

I have been busy working and teaching. I don't even spend that much time on Facebook now days. Just to much work and not enough time.
 

Brian Marshall

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Interesting... the fact that the slight rounding still seems to get the job done?


I have the yellow wheels and I've tried 'em. Didn't notice much difference during the week or so I tried them.

I was experimenting with that method for stone setting, not engraving.

May go try 'em again tomorrow with an actual engraving job?


B.
 

Sam

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Alexandre really knows his stuff and sharpens to perfection with the yellow wheels. The results, however, are not the flawless flat facets we can get with diamond or iron lap, but as Alexandre proves, it's not that critical. While he's one of the best diamond setters on the planet, he can out-engrave most hand engravers as well. His work is not of this world.

Ray: Jewelry engravers and western brightcutters seek bright cutting gravers far beyond what most of use on a regular basis. I think that polishing the face helps achieve a keener edge that results in even brighter cuts, though I've not done any extensive testing on the theory. A mirror polished graver face sure looks nice!
 

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I don't know if where the practical limits are. I'll take it as given, and fine that 1200 works for Ray and Sam. I know an engraver in my field that doesn't go past 600. And I have no complaints about his work (tho my suspicion is its a well worn 600)
But I'm not following the logic of face vs heal (don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the experience, and effect is incorrect). But isn't the cutting edge the intersection of face and heel? So bumps (strait ions) on the face would equal peaks and valleys on the edge?
 

Chujybear

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I think I type faster than I think.
I guess if the heels are riding the bottom of your cut the rough edge would be immaterial since the tool is shearing on a plane with its heel. Only time you might see it, if it was see able would be dropping into a cut.
 

grumpyphil

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I polish heels on a cast iron lap with diamond powder. Sometimes I polish the face because it looks really nice but I'm not sure it accomplishes anything other than it makes me feel good. I'm a carbide guy for most work and I only bright polish gravers when I need sparkly cuts in jewelry engraving. For everything else 1200 grit diamond is sufficient.

Sam do you use the powder dry on the cast iron lap? I've always mixed mine to a wet paste-like consistency with olive oil. Never even thought to use it dry.
 

Barry Lee Hands

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I always sharpen the face first- and last.
I never go beyond 1200 grit stone unless i am using a flat or round bottom for bright cutting- or as Sam mentions, stone setting.
When i visited Ken Hunt years ago, he suggested most cuts look better if the graver is not polished and when i studied with Siderov, he pointed out that carbide breaks faster if polished, and i think he is correct.
 
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monk

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face first--if needed then heels if there are any. i learned of diamond powder usage here on the forum. i first used it on a leather pad, glued onto a hardwood block. didn't like that, so i used a common strip of typing paper placed on a piece of plate glass. i found this way to be far more to my liking. it's obvious after reading the responses brian, that there seems to be a lot of leeway in individual work habits.
i only use diamond laps in a drillpress, not ceramic. the lindsay system is also in my arsenal. generally, only the heels need a touchup. with the lindsay, i jump ship if a polish is needed. i just eyeball the heels on the diamond powder/paper/plate glass. some of my methods are a result of learning on the forum. in any event, the way i do such works for me. the face-- i never polish it. it never seems (imho) to affect the quality of the cuts, so i don't bother.
 

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