engraving case hardened

tdelewis

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Should case hardened steel be annealed or can it be prepped like any other finish, and then engraved? I mean true case hardened metal. I know that Italian reproductions engrave fine I've done several, but that is NOT done with bone charcoal. On the Italian guns I used a bluing remover and then polished. Can you do the same with true case hardening?
 

JJ Roberts

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tdelewis,I put the case color parts in an oven set 500 degrees for five hours after that hand polish no buffing.J.J.
 

Ron Spokovich

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About 50 years ago, I had a Lufkin tool, of some kind, that was case hardened the old way, diamond drag 'engraved' with my name. Everything went fine. The jeweler, however, told me not to bring anything in again like that, as it played hell with his diamond. Lufkin, I believe, used bone charcoal, or cyanide, in the process. You'll not be able to conventionally engrave the old time stuff, I guarantee, in it's normal state. How the processes are done today, I'm not sure. Tempering temperatures might draw back skin hardness, but they also can ruin your piece. The factories may do it different today, and you may get away with what you want to do. As for me, I'd decline such a job.
 

MICHAEL

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The Italian guns are not case color hardened (CCH) almost always. They are chemically treated Cased colors. There is a you tube video showing how this is done over a chemical vat. I did get hold of a true CCH hammer, an 1860 pietta cap and ball pistol. You'll know when you have true case hardened parts because your point will fracture, period. I dub my points and it doesn't matter, your point will be gone.:mad::(
I have a heat treat furnace and place the part in a crucible packed with hard wood charcoal (special order). Heat to 1350 for 10 mins depending on size of part and turn oven off. By morning part cuts as soft as butter. I've experimented with different temperatures and soak times and found this to be the best for me. Others may have different experiences and opinions. It's getting the steel to this critical temp and the slow cooling that anneals it. Hope this helps. :thumbsup:
 

jerrywh

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Some so called case hardening isn't very hard. It is quenched at a low temperature just to obtain the best colors. If it is heated to the proper temp. and quenched at 1450 or more I promise you will not engrave it. Only a diamond will cut it. If you anneal it back as JJ said you might cut it with a carbide graver but it will give you a very rough time.
 

tdelewis

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The part that I am considering is an 1885 Winchester low wall action that was refinished in the mid 70's by J.J. Jenkins if Sta. Barbara Cal. The colors are bright blue and brown. I don't know if that means anything.
 

MICHAEL

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Take a small file to an area that won't be seen and run it across. If it bites, it's soft. If it skips across, and no marks are made, it's hardened, and you must anneal it prior to engraving. :thumbsup:
 
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FANCYGUN

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Get hold of Pete Mazur. You can look his address up on the ACGG web site.
Pete used to work for Jenkins and if I remember correctly they were using cyanide for their colors. The action would be hard besides looking real good as Pete does first class work. He can most likely anneal the action for you also. He's a good guy
 

JJ Roberts

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Cyanide may look good on a H&R single shot shotgun but not going look right on classic firearms like Parker,L.C.Smith or Winchester.J.J.
 

tdelewis

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I got a message from Pete Mazur. He gave me a detailed answer on CCH temperatures and said the process that they used was Sodium Cyanide at 1267 degrees (+,-) 10 degrees. He also said that you cannot anneal case hardened steel. The carbon atoms on the surface will unbind from the parent metal and will flake off if too much heat is used. He suggested a toaster oven at 400 degrees for 3 hours which is similar to what JJ says. This forum is a great place for neophytes to learn from those who have gained knowledge other ways.
 

Thierry Duguet

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I got a message from Pete Mazur. He gave me a detailed answer on CCH temperatures and said the process that they used was Sodium Cyanide at 1267 degrees (+,-) 10 degrees. He also said that you cannot anneal case hardened steel. The carbon atoms on the surface will unbind from the parent metal and will flake off if too much heat is used. He suggested a toaster oven at 400 degrees for 3 hours which is similar to what JJ says. This forum is a great place for neophytes to learn from those who have gained knowledge other ways.

I will add to this accurate description of the process that you need to let the piece cool down slowly, let it cool in the oven and remove it from the oven when it is at room temperature, I think that 500 degrees might be better, to avoid flaking (scaling) and make polishing easier you can enclosed the part, which need to be anneal, in heavy duty aluminum foil with the part put a small piece of wood, when the the part is heated the piece of wood will burn and consume the oxygen in the inclosure and prevent scaling, there is also some type of ceramic paste you can apply to the part and prevent oxidation.
I would add that the process work on case color gun like Parker, LC Smith, Colt, H & H, Purdey, etc (low carbon steel). The process may not work as well with more modern firearms.
 
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