Question: Silver Ring Engraving

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muknidav

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oiseau metal arts said:
also to comment on the casting option.... casting is capable of producing MUCH finer details than the ring you posted a photo of. lots of fun to do, but does take a little more than $1500 to get set up unless you can find a local jeweler going out of business or just clearing out some equipment. then you can find some great deals. I managed to find one here 4 years ago and got the whole shop for $1400.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lor for also commenting about that option. Actually that is what i am focused on these 2 days. Even i have made a list of what i need for casting. But i am still curious about the details. To make sure that we are talking about the same casting method, we are talking about delft clay sand method right??? (just used on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sCDTRwMwg )

May be because i am not familier about casting, it still seems i can not have a detailed work like above? I am not an expert, i dont want to be rude but that is what i am thinking. If you are pointing the much finer detail casting on an another method, please tell me. May be you are referring the wax method first than sand method.
 
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muknidav

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Roger B said:
If you want to cast (and yes silver will fill the details in this ring) start with wax carving and source a company that can do the casting for you. There are too many variables that can make a success or failure of the job. I'm not saying that beginners cannot be successful but if you have too many failures in casting someone may be easily put off continuing. If you plan to make a number of the same design the procedure would be to first make a master (this can be done directly in metal which would mean you will have to engrave the symbols - or make a model in wax and carve the symbols, then have it cast in metal), have a rubber mould made from this master which can be used to make the duplicate wax rings which would then be invested and cast in silver.

As you can see the skills that I mentioned in my previous post can include but not be restricted to wax carving, investing and burnout, vulcanizing the rubber mould and cutting it in a way to minimize mould lines, injecting the mould to create wax copies, treeing up the new waxes and finally cleaning up the silver rings. Bear in mind that shrinkage will occur through various stages so the finished rings will not be the same dimensions as the master. If you plan to set up your workshop as you plan to continue some of the equipment and consumables you will need will be a burnout oven, a vulcanizer, rubber sheets, investment, wax injector perhaps a vacuum chamber and a means to melt the silver and cast. When taken as a whole this is why I suggest the beginner start out small and just start with the carved wax and have someone else have the problem of casting.

Looks like you might have another couple of months researching to decide the best way to go - have fun,

Roger
Click to expand...

Roger thanks again for the details. Actually i intend to complete the whole process on my own. And because all of the numbers are unique for the people who wear this ring, there is not a master ring. General shape can be same but engravings would aboslutely be different.

I already make a list which i need to purchase, but thank you again for the main items list you have mentioned on th esecond paragraph. I have seen some casting kits on Amazon. One of it is like on the link below http://www.amazon.com/Grobet-SAND-CASTING-SET/dp/B003TFSBBS/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

And finally yes, i absolutely need more research.
 
oiseau metal arts

oiseau metal arts

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muknidav said:
Thanks a lor for also commenting about that option. Actually that is what i am focused on these 2 days. Even i have made a list of what i need for casting. But i am still curious about the details. To make sure that we are talking about the same casting method, we are talking about delft clay sand method right??? (just used on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sCDTRwMwg )

May be because i am not familier about casting, it still seems i can not have a detailed work like above? I am not an expert, i dont want to be rude but that is what i am thinking. If you are pointing the much finer detail casting on an another method, please tell me. May be you are referring the wax method first than sand method.
Click to expand...

im referring to lost was.... same as roger.
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/VIC-9-Casting-Systems-with-The-Assistants/705126?Pos=20
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Neycraft-Spincaster/705002?Pos=4
ive never used that sand. ive used this to cast a bee in silver, and all the tiny hairs and details come out fine, so the details on this ring will be nothing to worry about..
for a project like you are saying, you could make the master in wax either plain, or with the grid likes already in place. then after casting add in all the other individualized details. (individual adjustments to the size can be made while still the wax model before casting it in silver)

here are a couple books to possibly check out. im sure you can find books by searching "lost wax casting" or "jewelry casting" on amazon too
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Practical-Casting-A-Studio-Reference,-Book/550185?Pos=2
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/The-AJM-Guide-to-Lost_dash_Wax-Casting,-Book/550680?Pos=3
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Lost_dash_Wax-Casting,-Book/550702?Pos=4

start with some books. read up on the processes youre interested in and save up your $$ for when you are finally ready to make a better informed decision on which tools youll need (or not need) to drop lots of $$$$ on.

and yes im sure youtube will also have some videos about the processes and equipment too.
 
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Roger B

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muknidav said:
Actually i intend to complete the whole process on my own. And because all of the numbers are unique for the people who wear this ring, there is not a master ring. General shape can be same but engravings would aboslutely be different.

I already make a list which i need to purchase, but thank you again for the main items list you have mentioned on th esecond paragraph. I have seen some casting kits on Amazon. One of it is like on the link below http://www.amazon.com/Grobet-SAND-CASTING-SET/dp/B003TFSBBS/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8
Click to expand...

Well the way I see it is -
1) you can hand forge the individual rings and engrave each to the specs you are after or
2) you can cast the rings in silver from a master that does not include the engravings and then engrave each one or
3) you can carve each ring in wax including the markings and then cast in silver

Anyway you look at it if you will have a huge learning curve. With my experience of over three decades in the trade (some years with a major caster) and if I wanted to do what you do again I would suggest baby steps and start off small with the third option above - your initial outlay would be some ring wax, files, a couple of hand scorpers and sharpening stones, a mandrel to size the waxes, emery sticks and papers, a polishing motor and buffs and some polish - that is probably it - get someone who knows what they are doing to do the casting for now and if you decide this is your future expand. Get the sizes in wax correct or you will have to learn to silver solder and buy all the equipment needed to do that. Don't muck around with the casting clay - from my understanding that is directed more to hobbyists who are not going into a production line process. It will not take long to burn through your $1400-.

You have been given good advice in this thread and it is up to you whether you accept or reject it.

Roger B
 
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Haraga.com

Haraga.com

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These guys are crazy. Finance all the equipment you can and figure it out later. It will all work out.
 
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Silberschweif

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I think the best you can do is build a master ring that is not engraved. The ring can be out of wax or whatever.
Give this ring to a casting service they can make copys as mutch as you need and you can safe the money for a nice engraving equipment and class.

i dont know whats the best service for usa but that was the first hit on google
http://www.jccojewelrycastingservices.com/
 
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Dad of 3

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That ring you posted was etched. Very cheap and easy to do. The ring is a very common blank sold by a ton of vendors. Buy the blanks and have 10 of those type of rings done by lunch.
 
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Brian Marshall

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And you base your statement on what, specifically?

Do you understand the process of etching better than I do? (it is quite possible - as well a possibility of a new technique that I am not familiar with)

If so, please teach me how you can etch a tapered cut - in DEPTH - from shallow to deep, with compound angles - in the way I see them on this ring. WIthout requiring 15 maskings and immersions...

I have never seen this done with an etching process. Nor have I seen the particular irregularities displayed on this ring to be caused by etching.


Would the poster of this thread be so kind as to temporarily remove the black filling with a solvent and show the bottom of the channels? Please post the image.


Brian
 
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dlilazteca

dlilazteca

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Dad of 3 said:
That ring you posted was etched. Very cheap and easy to do. The ring is a very common blank sold by a ton of vendors. Buy the blanks and have 10 of those type of rings done by lunch.
Click to expand...

I agree with the etching Ive seen my local knife maker etch his detailed makers mark on 10 knives in no time flat, and to the looks of that design its not complicated at all.
 
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Brian Marshall

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Originally Posted by Dad of 3
That ring you posted was etched. Very cheap and easy to do. The ring is a very common blank sold by a ton of vendors. Buy the blanks and have 10 of those type of rings done by lunch.

I agree with the etching Ive seen my local knife maker etch his detailed makers mark on 10 knives in no time flat, and to the looks of that design its not complicated at all.
Saludos,
Carlos


Carlos,


1. Etching produces an average depth. NOT a variable depth as seen here. (Unless you are referring to the EDM process which would not be applicable in this case)

2. The electro-etching process normaly used to hallmark a steel knife blade is quite different from the etching processes that are commonly used for etching silver.

3. Electro-etching also produces a fairly level depth. NOT shallow to deep.

Do your research.


B.
 
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Dad of 3

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Come on over sometime Brian. You can teach me some engraving and I'll teach you some etching. This has been done for year and years and a basic sense for something for you to do google take a look at how gravure print plates are made. This wasn't done this way but you get the idea. I went to several schools for this type of work over the years.
 
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Brian Marshall

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In SILVER?

Using what technique? What mordants and how do you get a taper that looks exactly like a graver cut - angled and from shallow to deep?

(Without 15 maskings and repeating the etch over and over to gradually deepen... and you would have to be incredibly precise to be able to do that without muddying the design at each repetition.)


The only way to be absolutely positive of the method used to cut the design in this ring is to find the maker and ask him/her how the lettering was done.

Or maybe - if the poster can strip the black out of the ring and we can see the bottom... or give us a clue as to how to find/contact the maker - so we can ask?


B.


I just pulled my reference binder on etching processes. The contents are from 3 courses or workshops I took over the years. There is no illustration anywhere in the contents that has the appearance of the edges or tapering of the depth shown in the image we are discussing... nor have my own etched letter/number results ever had that "look".

The ultimate authority on this forum on the etching processes would be Montejano. Hopefully he will see or someone will tell him of this thread and he will chime in.

Place your bets folks.
 
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atexascowboy2011

atexascowboy2011

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Having punches made, of one size will not work for a petite woman/child/man.
What you are trying to accomplish with no hands on guidance or experience is ... :beatup:
 
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Brian Marshall

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Nope, I am betting that there is no such cheap and easy etching method that will give the exact results seen in the original image... shallow AND angled to deep. (Results normally gotten with a graver or chisel)

You are betting/saying that there is. AND that that is how this particular item was produced.


If your statement is true, then I will get to eat a plateful of cold crow. Without condiments. (sin salsa)

If it is not true, well, I leave that to others...


B.


Etch us a comparable sample in silver and post it here. Show me. And the forum. You made the statement. Back it up. Let the forum judge.

I've got no problem matching the original with a graver on a silver scrap - bobbles and all... (about 5 cups of caffeine should do the trick. Monk will probably recommend alcohol, but I don't drink these days)


We'll worry about comparing the time it takes to do it each way - if your results can match the original and mine.

Keep in mind that the object is to make an original each time, with a different combination of letters/symbols...
 
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