a somewhat disturbing trend...

mitch · Jun 20, 2015

At the risk of scaring some folks off, I'm going to say this anyway: Too many newbies are asking for help before making ANY EFFORT WHATSOEVER to find something out on their own! In recent months there seems to be an increasing tendency for some to seek (free) instruction on the most basic techniques. Things that are readily available in books and online with but a moment's diligence are now routinely found in threads on this forum. I'm even getting PMs & emails asking directly for advice on this simple ... stuff.

Far too often lately I'm seeing questions that are being tersely answered with "You need to search the Tips Archive..." If you can't even bother looking up the info that is almost certainly already contained somewhere in this vast resource, why the h*** should the rest of us waste our valuable time spoon-feeding it to you? And more to the point, if you don't have the initiative & determination to learn the simplest things without constant handholding, you will NEVER make it as an engraver. You do not have what it takes.

In the last few days I've been working on a project that involves a couple techniques that I had to figure out FOR MYSELF about 30 years ago. I've always tried to push the envelope and way back then I didn't know anybody who was doing these techniques so there was nobody to call anyway. It also got me to thinking how much I LEARNED by being forced to figure things out on my own. Instead of immediately typing "How do I do...?" on a computer, I had no choice but to consider various options and apply some creativity to more than the scroll design. And yeah, I made some mistakes along the way, too- sometimes learning more from those than the successes.

Try doing your own research and experimenting a bit, people! Feel free to ask for help when you run into problems, but PLEASE stop abusing this resource as your personal live how-to manual for every little thing!!!

DakotaDocMartin · Jun 20, 2015

Amen!

Amen! :thumbsup:

:clapping: :tiphat:

:banana::bow:

And, they want to be making and selling stuff in a month or two rather than committing themselves to years of diligence and learning.

Beathard · Jun 20, 2015

So, in other words, the forum is a place for Masters to ask for assistance? Interesting viewpoint.

mrthe · Jun 20, 2015

This is something that i have observed too lately, there are a lot of great info here and for free , you need just search it, but maybe is to much work for someone to do hehehe, in the hobo nockel art too i have observed a new tendency, lately people are more interested in learn how they can sell well his coins before in how to carve them in a decent way.

mitch · Jun 20, 2015

Beathard said:
So, in other words, the forum is a place for Masters to ask for assistance? Interesting viewpoint.

thanks for completely missing the point. to reiterate, i have ZERO problem with a beginner posting a question along the lines of "I've been practicing inlaying gold lines with the ___ technique, but I'm having trouble with ___ happening on curves. How can I fix/prevent that?"

it's the people who post the "How does one inlay gold?" questions right off the bat who irritate.

got it?

Beathard · Jun 20, 2015

Yes Mitch, I get it. And I have a better solution... Don't read them.

Beathard · Jun 20, 2015

Oh, and if you research the postings on the forum there have been complaints about this "trend" for years. Not only is it not a "trend" but the complaints are never read by the culprits. Therefore, it doesn't change.

Kevin Scott · Jun 20, 2015

One of the problems today is there is so much info available, more tool options etc, new people get overwhelmed. Seems nowadays the info explosion causes people to become more hesitant to make decisions. Not just engraving, but other things also.

I see in watch repair, new people want easy answers. Why buy books when all I got to do is ask a question on a forum? Now, some people think the internet makes old ways of learning obsolete, instead of being a good supplement to learning.

Before the internet people did not have alot of options to learn engraving. Mostly you bought a book. Either Meeks book or one of the old jewelry engraving books. And just kept studying and practicing until you either gave up, or made enough progress to encourage you to keep on trying.

Often the lessons learned the hard way stick with you. Now people don't feel the need to write things down. If you forget something, just ask again. Not just with new engraving people, but I see it all over. Even with simple things like driving directions. Instead of following your directions, they want to keep you on the phone while they drive, getting step by step directions, wasting your time.

Concerning learning inlay ( which I don't do) I can see how someone can get confused searching the forum about inlay work. So many ways to do it, some conflicting info, and have to wade through some irrelevant posts etc.

Maybe the first thing a new person should do is buy a book. After reading and studying the book for 20 - 100 hours, they might decide engraving is just not for them. Cheaper than buying a bunch of tools to find that out. If they decide to continue, they at least know some fundamentals, and can ask better questions. Especially if they have worked at doing the things advised in the book to get started.

JJ Roberts · Jun 20, 2015

Mitch,Right on :thumbsup:

sure wish all this information was there when I started in the early 70's all I had was Meek's book,one chasing hammer,chisels,push graves,sharping stones and spent the next two years on practice plates and then gun parts I found at gun shows.Newbies take advantage of the information on this forum that Sam set up so well. J.J.

diandwill · Jun 20, 2015

There was a post recently on Facebook. An individual was asking if anyone had any gravers they would trade or sell. I misread it to mean give, and gave a rather terse response. I was somewhat castigated for it, but I stand by the response that to be involved in engraving CAN be done fairly cheaply, but in the long run, for most people, will involve thousands of hours and dollars. The cost of a new engraver with handle, from Rio is not much. The cost of a sharpened graver with template, from Lindsay, isn't much. If an individual isn't prepared to make the commitment to time, and eventually money, they won't make it in the field of engraving.

The flip side is, those are the people that buy, and then sell, set-ups, for less than cost because they can't/won't invest in the time. So lower priced units DO come on the market because of them.

I do tend to agree with Mitch. Do a little of the digging, reading, watching before trying to get free answers. If nothing else they can say "I tried this, and this, and that and it still isn't working. What should I try next?"

Bob Ryder · Jun 20, 2015

As a newb, still picking up tools in how i want to move forward. i would agree with the original post. I see it to. I understand Beathard point of view as well. I believe Kevins first paragraph represents most of the problem today. I mean, I search and search and search. I seem to get multiple discussions in any direction over any given point. it wears me out sometimes and I havent put a single graver to metal yet lol... so I think its a mix. you have lazy people, they will go away. you have people who have a specific thing in mind, but there is so much info, they can't get through it. there are newbies from and older generation that the computer is fairly new, let alone searching, dialoguing and all those weird txt acronyms ha ha. but this place can be overwhelming at times I think the people really trying something, are gonna be helped 10 fold over someone years ago. this site is absolutely awesome for that. Im sure what your seeing mitch, is the negative side of how wonderful the internet can be. its easy to find the site, the sheer numbers is going to be higher and with that, well, your seeing a percentage of that higher number of volume. At least that is how I am seeing it.

Beathard · Jun 20, 2015

My main point is two fold: 1) its not a new trend and it wont stop with us complaining; and 2) if it bothers you, don't encourage it with an answer. If other people want to step in and help, let them. Some newbies offer some pretty humorous instructions.

mitch · Jun 20, 2015

to Bob & Kevin & whoever is reading along: all i'm asking is that people first try to make an effort, demonstrate a modicum of independent due diligence, instead of automatically looking for somebody to immediately solve their problems for them. it appears you guys get that just fine. and yes, it's definitely not just engraving, but virtually all fields & facets of life are now plagued with this syndrome. there's even a website devoted to it. i believe it's "www.lmgtfy.com" people have gotten so lazy and dependent on technology, to the point of expecting others to apply that ubiquitous tech on their behalf, that someone made a website to sarcastically mock them. yeah, sometimes it's a case of information overload that you want/need somebody to narrow down for you, but at least give it a shot first, ok?

JJ, et. al.: thanks- i don't think all those years we spent figuring out new ways to advance our craft was wasted, nor do we begrudge sharing it with those who appreciate it. the Lord is not the only one who helps those who help themselves...

Gerry: never mind.

Bob A · Jun 20, 2015

The Future

As a newbie, I couldn't agree more with Bob. Yes, there are those who seek the easy way in all manner of endeavors, but they will almost always give up soon. And, on all craftsmen board, there are those who reply to basic questions with "RTFM" types of responses, which are ... well, discouraging.

The search for the 'right' way to do things, especially when starting, is daunting and truly fraught with some very bad suggestions. Just a little bit of correct guidance from those who have gone through it can have two long lasting consequences -

Starting a new engraver down the right path so that they have a chance to grow.
Providing encouragement so that that in addition to the engraving they are bolstered by joining a group of pleasant, helpful and like minded craftsmen who care deeply about the craft.

Personally, I think it boils down to a choice as to how one would like to be remembered - as an unhelpful curmudgeon, or as a mentor.

Just my two cents. I have to say that I've received quite a bit of help here, and like to think I've put it to good use.

Bob

__________________________________________________ __________
Merry: Why are there so few of you, when you live so long? Are there young Engravers?
Treebeard: [Sadly] Burarum. There have been no Engravlings for a terrible long count of years.
Merry: Why is that?
Treebeard: We lost them.
Pippin: Oh, I'm sorry. Why did they leave?
Treebeard: Leave? No. We *lost* them. And now, we cannot *find* them. [hopefully] I don't suppose you've seen Engravlings in the Shire?
Pippin: [thinks for a moment] What do they look like?
Treebeard: [pauses] Hrrooom... Hroom... Hrrrrrroooom.... I... don't... remember...... now.

Brian Marshall · Jun 20, 2015

How do you recommend dealing with the non-newbie "somewhat humorous instructions" ?

Of which, a large number are mine...

Brian

Maybe paste some kinda WARNING label on 'em like - "Newbies ain't gonna get this joke!"

Or an acronym? TIC = tongue in cheek?

dogcatcher · Jun 20, 2015

It is the same on almost all of the forums. I am a callmaker, the new guys come on board and want to be spoon fed the information. On most of those forums I have a signature line that states, "Helping those that are helping themselves."

fred carter · Jun 20, 2015

This video from Dr. Derek Muller sort of sums it all up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMPzDiraNnA

Brant · Jun 20, 2015

Mitch,

I have to agree with you 95 percent.

When I decided to learn to engrave I found this and Steve's forum. I started reading posts and someone said to use the search function and read the tips and archives.

I did, both forums, start to finish. An amazing amount of information!

Some conflicts, but patterns of advice do develop. Read, draw, draw, draw, get some instruction, practise, and DRAW some more.

Only then do I personally feel that I can ask a n intelligent question.

Rant over.

YMMV

Sam · Jun 21, 2015

Those that need spoon feeding can feast in the Tips Archive. It doesn't get much easier than that. I've made videos and threads pertaining to questions we get asked over and over and over again.

And here's something else to consider. If you arrive at this forum with an insulting attitude and start off on the wrong foot and get crossways with people, you're very likely going to get lukewarm response when you ask for help. Thankfully we don't see that often, but it does happen.

DakotaDocMartin · Jun 21, 2015

sam said:
Those that need spoon feeding can feast in the Tips Archive. It doesn't get much easier than that.

And, a person can actually get all of that information for FREE! (Thankfully, a small number of the visitors to this great repository of knowledge will see fit to donate a pittance of a sum of money to help perpetuate the forum)

a somewhat disturbing trend...

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