Beginner - Novice - Expert

BrianPowley · Jun 14, 2015

Because of cultural differences, we do not have an apprenticeship program (or equivalent system) for learning the art of engraving in the U.S.
Here, we had to glean the knowledge any way we could. Many have had to reinvent the wheel because of the lack of information, but the internet and private/commercial studios has changed much of the landscape.

Many say they are "Master Engravers" but are really just "experienced". By the way---experience isn't always a good determining factor. We all know very experienced people that are total screw-ups at the job they do. I think many have tweaked the term "Master Engraver" to suit themselves and their customers.
(Same as the word Bulino----Bulino is the tool, not the style of engraving. No wonder the Europeans scratch their heads when we talk)
I may be a FEGA Certified Master Engraver, but all that means is I have met their standards at the time of my application and probably doesn't mean much in other countries. FEGA is the only guild we have in the U.S. Founded by a group of talented people with a passion for this artform.
It is my responsibility to uphold those standards to those who judged my work. It is not a license to put out "experience" for the sake of my own personal gain.
Don't misunderstand---There's nothing wrong with having an advantage, but there's plenty of fault for taking advantage.

KCSteve · Jun 14, 2015

The modern tools help get folks through the 'Beginner' stage faster these days, but that just means you spend more time in the 'Journeyman' stage.

I distinguish between 'talent' and 'skill'. I have the blessing / curse of being talented in a number of areas. All that that means is that I tend to be better at things then I should be for the time / training I have. Skill, on the other hand, is earned. The reason talent can be a curse is that it can discourage putting in the time and effort required to build skill.

Mozart was gifted with an extreme level of talent and he put in the work (starting early) to get the skills we so admire.

In some ways the modern tools are like talent. An air graver makes it easier for someone to engrave a nice clean line. It's still up to them to put in the time and effort to learn how do something with those lines.

Dave London · Jun 14, 2015

Bingo Sam
A professional oddball, much nicer the a lot of other things I have been called

Kevin Scott · Jun 14, 2015

The chart is quite a bit out of scale on the timeline according to the description. The Novice should be twice as wide, and the expert at least 1 1/2x as wide as novice. Instead the widths of the time lines are all the same.

A chart that shows the description would show a flatter top line of quality. Which I think would be accurate in most cases.

All in all the written explanation is fairly accurate I think. Of course there are exceptions. And time alone or years at it does not necessarily make you better as has been pointed out. For the years I have been at this I should be an expert according to the chart. But in actual working, studying hours, I have maybe 3,000 or more hours in. Equivalent of 2 1/2 to 3 years full time? But I am still a long way from getting to the novice rating.

Brian Marshall · Jun 14, 2015

<"Because of cultural differences, we do not have an apprenticeship program (or equivalent system) for learning the art of engraving in the U.S.">

But it appears that we already DO have: Beginner, Novice, Apprentice, trade Journeyman, Professional, Expert and Master levels...

And there ARE now enough USA "professional" engravers who have really earned the top levels - who could conceivably take an "apprentice" for 6 months.

That looks like the "makin's" to me? Just have to sort it out, set proper definitions and get to work!

Do ya think it will happen? Why or why not?

When? I am up for it, but then I have always been... I can start again in October.

Brian

Brian Marshall · Jun 14, 2015

Dad of 3...

Is it gonna be okay with you if the surgeons you mentioned are trained on youtube?

B.

Beathard · Jun 14, 2015

Its also hard to change the requirements after they have been implemented. It smells of ivory tower syndrome. A better option would be to create a higher level that has more stringent requirements. A Grand Masters rating possibly?

JMiller · Jun 14, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
<
When? I am up for it, but then I have always been... I can start again in October.

Brian

Hey Brian, ever think about moving to Alabama? I could help unpack, that could be the start of my training?

diandwill · Jun 14, 2015

I wouldn't want surgeons that were trained on you tube, but I sure would like one that knew what he was doing...not just practicing!

Brian Marshall · Jun 14, 2015

Better yet, create 3 or 5 levels!

Had to go look that one up. Only time ivory really smells bad is when you cut it or burn it... and I musta missed the allegory completely?

I sure in the hell don't live or work in one! (Well... I did once - in Taxco. Uli had one in the "castle" he used to work out of - but it was brick as I recall)

And ah yes, there is that thing about the "requirements". There is a little bit of history there. Back when I was first exposed to FEGA (Jeeze, was it was around 30 years ago already?)

I had a coupla guys wantin' me to get the FEGA Master card. So I went to find out about it.

Didn't have 2 of the "requirements" at the time. (Dunno if they've changed?)

The requirements were 3 engraved firearms and an FFL. I had neither.

Though I may have done as many as two dozen guns over the years, that is NOT what I did for living. Still don't. Never wanted to work that hard...

Why would I wanna jump through the hoops and pay the money for sumthin' I might have no use at all for, for a coupla years at a time. There are easier/legal ways for the few that crossed my bench.

I heard that the "requirements" were later changed to a coupla plates or sumthin' like that? But FEGA KEPT the plates if you passed. Wasn't interested in that either.

I was busy and I knew by then that I'd never be doing that particular specialty work for a living.

B.

Jeff - ummm... it'd have to be done 4 times. Load 2 40 foot trailers here, unload 'em there, reload 'em when done - and unload 'em again at home...

Were you looking to get some weight training or engraving out of this? Be a pretty steep fuel bill, even if you own the rig.

Brian

Dave London · Jun 14, 2015

:beatup:Not to get too far afield in this discussion, MTC the worst thing that happened in the U.S. Education system was the elimination of the shop classes i.e. Wood shop, metal shop, etc. every one being told that the only road to success was a college degree.
Now you have to go to a college to be a auto mechanic ops, I mean technician the new PC term. Have to be well rounded don't you know.
Nothing wrong with college but for many not needed and a economic burden.
We need workers and a sound apprenticeship program in all crafts / fields to get the USA back on track. Rant off

Dad of 3 · Jun 15, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
Dad of 3...

Is it gonna be okay with you if the surgeons you mentioned are trained on youtube?

B.

I don't care if they just woke up being the best surgeon one day, went to the best school in the country or learned everything they know from others (internet, books, videos, you name it). To me they are either a good surgeon in their field or not. I was going to say it makes no difference at all how they learned but frankly if a guy is smart enough to teach himself I would say he would be my choice, someone that can think for themselves might come in handy... The Dept of Labor has a ton of info on apprenticeships if anyone wants to try and go that route.

Joacim Jansson · Jun 15, 2015

In Sweden it works so that you get first go as an apprentice for four years.
Then you can make a journeyman test, and you have to have over 3 out of 5 of the assessment to be approved as a journeyman.
And to apply for the master's certificate in your profession, you have to have 10,000 hours or 6 years in the profession. The test consists of a work sample and that you can demonstrate business know-how.

(I use Google Translate as I have dylexi, but hope you understand)

JMiller · Jun 15, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
Jeff - ummm... it'd have to be done 4 times. Load 2 40 foot trailers here, unload 'em there, reload 'em when done - and unload 'em again at home...

Were you looking to get some weight training or engraving out of this? Be a pretty steep fuel bill, even if you own the rig.

Brian

I was thinking something more like this.... they fly in often for the Arsenal.

SamW · Jun 15, 2015

Looks to me that thing could use 3 or 4 more engines!

mitch · Jun 15, 2015

Dave London said:
the worst thing that happened in the U.S. Education system was the elimination of the shop classes i.e. Wood shop, metal shop, etc. every one being told that the only road to success was a college degree.
Now you have to go to a college to be a auto mechanic ops, I mean technician the new PC term. Have to be well rounded don't you know.

a few years ago i had the owner of a small, 6 employees(?) HVAC company quote a new furnace for my house. he was telling me all about the near new, cherry low miles Porsche Turbo with the full carbon fiber interior he'd recently bought. at the time, new ones were about $140,000...

Thierry Duguet · Jun 15, 2015

In this conversation the most important component of the business of engraving seems to be forgotten, I am thinking of course about the client. It is obvious that when one is using the title "Master Engraver" one is referring to the old guild system, it is also obvious that the client himself reading the title will assume that he is dealing with the most competent member of the profession. Most clients do not have the knowledge, the eye to appreciate the work being done, like with any profession they may look for guidance to choose who is going to do the work on their item, the title is going to be one of its guide and assume that "Master" is:
1) An official designation
2) Represent the recognition of the highest degree of competency
It is too easy to say that the title is meaningless when it is often use to gain credibility to the eyes of the paying customer. Maybe as electrician, plumber, CPA, hair dressers, we may seek to find out how to give legitimacy to the title we use, not just for our own ego boosting pleasure but to protect our profession and our clients.

jerrywh · Jun 15, 2015

gifted or tallented?

In my opinion talent is not from birth or as some would say a gift from God.
I think if we are born with anything in that order it is a love of beauty, persistence, patience, imagination and a desire for perfection. Talent is learned and earned. Some people can achieve masters level in their field much quicker than average. Those kind of people are obsessed with the subject of their desire. They live to achieve what they are obsessed with and work to achieve it with a sort of insane pace. They will not quit or give up or slack off until they reach their goal of perfection which is usually unobtainable in their mind. It is almost a form of insanity.

Brian Marshall · Jun 15, 2015

You can, however, be born with the proclivity to do what most people think of as "insane" things.

Hand engraving is one of those things...

Not in quite the same category as say, base jumping - but close?

B.

The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. – Mark Twain

Sam · Jun 15, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
You can, however, be born with the proclivity to do what most people think of as "insane" things.

Hand engraving is one of those things...

Not in quite the same category as say, base jumping - but close?

[/I]

Agreed. A career in hand engraving is far more risky than base jumping

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