Beginner - Novice - Expert

I think that we have to agree with the meaning of the word. In the old time being a master craftsman, met that you were able to accomplish every task related to your craft with a high degree of success. Being the best watch engraver in the world does not qualify one as a master if it is the only thing one can do. As a master engraver one should be able to create original work, should be proficient in the most common styles, from deep/high relief to game scene, from English scrolls to American scrolls, metal inlay and overlay, lettering. Of course very few people would be proficient to all this tasks, that is why they are the elite and should be call Masters.
I recognize that we can not be so stringent in or requirement, maybe modern "Master" would not have to be equally qualify in every aspect of the craft but they should be able to perform all of them with some degree of success.
I find absurd to compare a gifted musician to an engraver, should you need a comparison, use visual art, sculpting, painting, etc, how many five, ten, twenty years old are/were seen as masters in the visual art domains, not many, none that I can think about.
I do not think that a minimum given number of hours days or years is necessary or require to become a "Master", the title of is not the recognition of the time spend neither is it the recognition of the effort it is the reward of the result.
As I was saying when I started this post, words have meaning, if you do not like the meaning do not use the word or qualify it.

No, it doesn't have to take X number of years to become quite an excellent engraver. That was not my point, though now re-reading what I wrote it does kinda look like that was what I meant.


That semi-plateau at the top of the graph could and should be designated for multiple levels of recognition.

What I meant was that if you put up some of the "Professionals, Experts and Masters" from the USA against what the Europeans call/qualify as a "Master" today - right now/this minute - there is often a huge disparity in the level of skills.


And while Youtube has advantages for those who learn how to use it intelligently, some of the self-trained students I have seen who depended entirely on youtube can be at a big disadvantage. As always, there really ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for - in one way or another. Either money or time. Or both.

Sure you can probably get your entire education for "free" off of Youtube. BUT it will take you far far longer than taking a few classes/workshops/apprenticeships. Either way you pay. And once again - do you want your airline pilot or your surgeon to have gotten educated entirely off of youtube videos?


There is NO good reason why more short term "hands on apprenticeships" (more like internships) could not be available in this country.

This relationship need not involve monetary costs for either party - other than perhaps travel, food and lodging for the student.

I have taken on well over a dozen over the years this way. One month to 6 months is average.

My hours are traded straight across for their hours. I teach 4 hours and I get in return whatever help I have need or use for, for 4 hours. Then there are still 4 hours left for them to spend researching, designing, drawing, and practicing. There is an extremely well stocked library here for those purposes.

The help that they give me can be whatever needs doing. Weeding the vegetable garden, harvesting, pruning trees, maintenance of all kinds, painting, electrical, plumbing, refurbishing shop tools or some other specialty skill the student has that I can use. Computer related is another example. One of the forum members who was here actually harvested a garlic bed one day and braided some up for the kitchen! Another spent some days canning fruit and vegetables and another cleaned up and organized my computer and my office. The latter one took a few weeks, my office was a mess. I gotta contact her and see if she wants some more skills now. Sadly, my office is as bad right now as it was the first time she fixed it for me...

There are dozens of very experienced older engravers on this forum worth learning from. Quite a few are getting to the age at which help of various kinds is as, or more useful than money. Having slowed down now - they have more time to share in return for something of value the student can provide. Write them, call them. Make them an offer they can't refuse. You'll be surprised at the results you may get. Hell, contact ME, if you wish... but some time after September...

The main reason why the European version of apprenticeship would not work well over here is that that teaching and all the mistakes that apprentices make - have to be paid for somehow. That was done by indenturing the apprentice for many years - which was often abused and turned into complete drudgery.

Always remember - "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"... but there are certainly less expensive restaurants and - better yet - home cooked meals...


Brian


The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. – Mark Twain

ho, hummm boys & girls. whilst y'all are arguing over the meaning of words-- i'm going to do some engraving on a pendant. if this bit of practice is good enough, i will have earned some money. happy debating !

I went through a four year apprenticeship as a Joiner (cabinet maker). It was sponsored by both the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners and the Cabinet Shops that choose to use Union Craftsmen. The process does work here for the companies that use the union Craftsmen. The companies know that when they contact the hiring hall for a journeyman they are certain of the skills the new employee will have. If they have need of a cabinet finisher they can hire a new employee that is a third year apprentice and they are assured of the finishing knowledge that new person will have from day one. The apprenticeship program is why most commercial shops prefer to go union even in right to work states. Production shops not so much. they take a person off the street, give them x number of hours of training and that job is all they can do.

Other union environments do not work that way. the Auto Industry is a terrible example of how unions have gone astray. All the union can offer is workers who are breathing. There are exceptions in the AutoWorks where they have skilled trades with complete apprenticeship programs however. Fred

Me too Monk...

I was flown back home to make/engrave a quick job. They are covering my costs, it pays well enough to interrupt what I was doing - and I happen to like this client as a person.


Later guys...

Brian, your last post proves all your comments- Have a good time and be safe. Fred

monk said:

ho, hummm boys & girls. whilst y'all are arguing over the meaning of words-- i'm going to do some engraving on a pendant. if this bit of practice is good enough, i will have earned some money. happy debating !

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Amen! My biggest influence in blacksmithing said he doesn't care what other blacksmiths call him they are not his customer. He said if you want to call me anything call me check casher guy lol. I considered him a master smith but he said the titles folks use are only for folks that have ego issues.

Brian I like your Mark Twain quote!

Brian Marshall said:

Me too Monk...

I was flown back home to make/engrave a quick job. They are covering my costs, it pays well enough to interrupt what I was doing - and I happen to like this client as a person.


Later guys...

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your words are good to hear. i think i've failed not only as an engraver, but as a person-- if i don't create some sort of "connection" with those for whom i have worked. when one does as you have, only good can come of it ! to be sure-- i'm not just talking about money.

I can say...
I have 28 years of occupation, and I am sure that I am in full evolution, I think that still much to learn je I lack je je, good topic, greetings.

Brian Marshall said:

To my knowledge we only have one prodigy on this forum - and that would be Phil... or is it Sam, or Mitch, or Chris, or ????

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if i'm on that list, "prodigy" doesn't mean what you think it means...

one of the problems i see with any sort of "master" designation in the field of engraving is that our art & craft is soooo incredibly diverse compared to most other disciplines. from a strictly nuts & bolts standpoint, the range of techniques, tools, art genres, etc., that we're expected to cover is vastly greater than just about any other art form you'd care to name. there's an infinite variety of 'just' scroll & lettering, both stylistically and in application- line cut, sculpted, bulino, inlaid, and every combination of those, etc. add things like scenes & stone setting, etc., along with their infinite variations, not to mention all the different objets upon which we ply our trade, and soon you'll find that virtually nobody is a master across the entire spectrum. and the few who can honestly claim to be hold their reunions in a phone booth...

I never liked the term "prodigy" or "gifted". Obviously there are a few people on the planet that qualify, but every single person I've met who is at the top of their game in music, art, engraving, etc, has worked their ass off to get there. It wasn't a gift they were born with. The infinitely rare exceptions would be people like Motzart who was already competent on piano and violin by 5 years old

Interesting thread that tries to quantify the delta between hard work, study and talent. Thanks for the insights! - Bob

____________________________________________________________
Merry: Why are there so few of you, when you live so long? Are there young Engravers?
Treebeard: [Sadly] Burarum. There have been no Engravlings for a terrible long count of years.
Merry: Why is that?
Treebeard: We lost them.
Pippin: Oh, I'm sorry. Why did they leave?
Treebeard: Leave? No. We *lost* them. And now, we cannot *find* them. [hopefully] I don't suppose you've seen Engravlings in the Shire?
Pippin: [thinks for a moment] What do they look like?
Treebeard: [pauses] Hrrooom... Hroom... Hrrrrrroooom.... I... don't... remember...... now.

Interesting!

Interesting thread that tries to quantify the delta between hard work, study and talent. Thanks for the insights! - Bob

____________________________________________________________
Merry: Why are there so few of you, when you live so long? Are there young Engravers?
Treebeard: [Sadly] Burarum. There have been no Engravlings for a terrible long count of years.
Merry: Why is that?
Treebeard: We lost them.
Pippin: Oh, I'm sorry. Why did they leave?
Treebeard: Leave? No. We *lost* them. And now, we cannot *find* them. [hopefully] I don't suppose you've seen Engravlings in the Shire?
Pippin: [thinks for a moment] What do they look like?
Treebeard: [pauses] Hrrooom... Hroom... Hrrrrrroooom.... I... don't... remember...... now.

S

sam said:

I never liked the term "prodigy" or "gifted". Obviously there are a few people on the planet that qualify, but every single person I've met who is at the top of their game in music, art, engraving, etc, has worked their ass off to get there. It wasn't a gift they were born with. The infinitely rare exceptions would be people like Motzart who was already competent on piano and violin by 5 years old

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Hi Sam,
I undersand what you are saying.
However, when properly applied, these words have wonderful meaning.
Monte Mandarino is a gunmaker and engraver, and i have often used the word gifted in describing him.
He has a full command of the gunmaking skills, including engraving. His natural talent was improved by experience, starting when a teenager - as a gunsmith.
You mention Mozart being competent at five, his exposure began at birth and training at two.
Michelangelo, another example, his exposure to stonecutting began in infancy and by the time he was twelve, he could cut stone and paint.
The Pieta, often viewed as the greatest sculpture in history, took him three months for most of the work and was completed when he was twentyfour.
Unfortunately, prodigies such as these are rare today, partly due to child labor laws which make the training required basically illegal in most countries today.
Natural talent- being "gifted" is a blessing, an ounce of work and study is worth a ton of talent.
I know this from personal experience , i spent my school years flunking my way through gifted programs, and it wasnt until i learned to work, mostly through ranchwork, that i became really good at anything.

Lee said:

In Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers he talks about the 10,000 hour principle. If you have the aptitude and drive it takes roughly 10,000 hours to achieve what we as engravers would refer to as a Master level. One of his examples was the Beatles and the years and many hours spent in Germany playing nightclubs to fine tune their act before stardom. Fascinating book.

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10,000 hours divided by 50 weeks a year divided by 60 hours a week is just over 3 years...

You can't judge an engraver by the number of years he has been engraving. Some engrave full time; others as a part-time hobby a few hours a month. It's the skill at which the engraver applies his art that is important.

Also the engraver's confidence level is important. If an engraver can't build up enough confidence to work on an expensive canvas, how can he be called a master? Michealangelo did not get stuck in his sketch books he moved on to the Sistine Chapel.

I agree with you Gerry...

And, since I have personally never felt the need to use any of the 3 "titles" in this thread to describe myself - and I passed the "10,000 hour mark" well over 40 years ago - I guess I don't really have a horse in the "title race"? (But it's kinda fun to watch the horses run their races from the bleachers - or the turf club...)


I made what I thought was a pretty fair living most of the time.

Maybe I woulda made more if I'da worried about such things? It's a little late now... don't ya think?

Clients always seemed satisfied... and still are...

Never been a single one of 'em that asked me for my title in all these years. Or their money back... 'cause I didn't have one


J.C. Randell once told me that the best way to handle the confidence thing - was to think of 'em ALL as practice plates. (In a way, that is what they are - you should get better every time)

Even when they cost more than everything you own, all put together - like the job I'm working on this next week.


Brian


The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. – Mark Twain

Brian, I am sure you are correct that every piece is a practice plate but When I am about to start some family heirloom and the prep work is done and the drawing done and any scribing done and I pick up that hand piece sometimes I feel like throwing up I think. After the first line or two I can get on with things but sometimes that first wack? Fred

Barry Lee Hands said:

S
Hi Sam,
I undersand what you are saying.
However, when properly applied, these words have wonderful meaning.
Monte Mandarino is a gunmaker and engraver, and i have often used the word gifted in describing him.
He has a full command of the gunmaking skills, including engraving. His natural talent was improved by experience, starting when a teenager - as a gunsmith.
You mention Mozart being competent at five, his exposure began at birth and training at two.
Michelangelo, another example, his exposure to stonecutting began in infancy and by the time he was twelve, he could cut stone and paint.
The Pieta, often viewed as the greatest sculpture in history, took him three months for most of the work and was completed when he was twentyfour.
Unfortunately, prodigies such as these are rare today, partly due to child labor laws which make the training required basically illegal in most countries today.
Natural talent- being "gifted" is a blessing, an ounce of work and study is worth a ton of talent.
I know this from personal experience , i spent my school years flunking my way through gifted programs, and it wasnt until i learned to work, mostly through ranchwork, that i became really good at anything.

Click to expand...

Barry: I understand what you're saying, but I define "gifted" as someone who picks up the fiddle and plays masterfully without having to work for it like others do, or the kid who paints with the skill and precision of a lifetime artist. So if Motzart started training at 2 years old then perhaps he's not gifted. It sounds like he worked for it like the rest of us.

I just think the term "gifted" is tossed around carelessly.

If engravers have a gift it's the quirkiness to to want to spend dozens or hundreds of hours working on something the size of a postage stamp! Something that normal people know or care little about. Everyone knows what a painter or sculptor is, but we get blank stares from most people when we tell them what we do. We really are a bunch of oddballs!

The Dr that di my surgery on my leg is considered one of the best in the country. He is a master of his skill most would say. He would not be a good choice to do brain surgery yet both are surgeons. I think this same thought would apply to engraving, the scope of the work that would fall under hand engraving just covers too much I would think. Someone that does the highest level of work on lettering may not do as well at say motorcycle part engraving.