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Beathard · Sep 10, 2015

sam said:
Many people are goal driven and attaining Master certification is a great goal, and there's nothing wrong with being acknowledged for doing superior work. Will you make more money because you have the certificate? Probably not if you're an engraver. If you're a master jeweler and you're seeking employment you might get a better salary just as you would if you're an accountant seeking employment and have a master's degree.

Putting an asterisk next to FEGA master's names to indicate they might be less of a master because of prior standards is ridiculous.

Aren't you implying through out this thread that some got through to master's status that shouldn't have?

oiseau metal arts · Sep 10, 2015

cant see where it would matter too much..... if they are master enough to earn a certificate (FEGA or in Europe) then they should be master enough to meet the customers requests. there would also be a large enough body of consistent quality work for the customer to look through and decide for themselves. if you want to get master certified and then put that * by your title for 10 years till you reach the level you consider 'higher master" then id guess you are welcome to it. let the work will speak for its self.

Sam · Sep 10, 2015

That's been discussed many times in the past. The bottom line is the system isn't perfect but it's all we have and I'm grateful that we have it. I will also voice my opinion on maintaining and inspiring high standards and not let them slip so the certification become meaningless or devalued. IMHO masters of any craft should represent the best of the best, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Or should we adopt today's political correctness where everyone wins and everyone gets a trophy regardless of their skill?

gcleaker · Sep 10, 2015

i have two cents to put into this. when someone is at the top of their game may it be gun engraving, plumbing, rocket science or even roofing it becomes the reputation of that person that drives the perception of others as to an attained level of professionalism. they may have an ability or even a god given gift to solve problems and develop tools and techniques or even adapt to changes in said environment. a person can not give their self a level of master to anything, it must be given to them by their associates.
don't drink and drive you will spill your drink.

mvangle · Sep 10, 2015

I agree with Sam 100%.
No certification program is perfect. But some program is better than none.
We all know people with master degrees flipping burgers or licensed professionals who are total failures at what THEY profess to be.
We all know people in their 40s still going to college because they have become professional students instead of what their various degrees and certificates declare. Their degree should be a degree of obtaining degrees.
The label doesn't make you a master. Your work, your passion, your work ethic, how you interact with others especially your clients, the list goes on and on.
Someone mentioned earlier production quality verses master quality....
A master of anything would not sacrifice their reputation for volume.
Less budget-less master work, not less than master work.
If you meet the FEGA requirements and obtain the acknowledgment of attending Masters to our show, then the real task starts....living up to the label.

Van Angle, Amateur Graver Sharpener

Thierry Duguet · Sep 10, 2015

gcleaker said:
a person can not give their self a level of master to anything, it must be given to them by their associates.
don't drink and drive you will spill your drink.

Go on line, you might be surprise by the number of self appointed Master, if the "title" is useless why would they bother?
Engraving is an evolving art what, might have be consider as masterful yesterday may not be seen as such today. The mistake might have been to use predefined terms, a Master carpenter was able to build a wooden bridge as well as a fine piece of furniture. By today standard it might be to much to ask or to expect that one individual could master every aspect of engraving (BTW stone setting was never part of the work of an engraver), only a few names come to mind, Churchill and McKenzy among them, they can/could do it all from English scrolls to Sculpting, by this standard very few engravers world wide would qualify, and that the way it should be.
I certainly do not want to be Churchill or McKenzy but I want to be better and as adaptable as they are/were. I do not want to be the Master of the left to right one inch scroll.

atexascowboy2011 · Sep 10, 2015

I just looked at Barry Hands and Phil Coggan's postings.
And ya don't see any "Certificates" touting their being at a master level.
Same as in any profession, when you get to that level, you and your customers know what you can do without a piece of paper.

Thierry Duguet · Sep 11, 2015

Funny, so many people seem so eager to pretend that a piece of paper does not matter. Everywhere I go, doctor, accountant, lawyers, mechanics, plumbers, hairdressers, all of them are so eager to plaster their “piece of paper” on their wall, are they running out of wall paper, are they covering some sort of defect on their wall?
Something else I read is that client know best, I beg to differ. It is true that some client know, but it is an small minority. As for painting, sculpting, “Art” visual or not, most clients rely on reputation, critics, “Piece of Paper”, and perceive value for the money. The fact is that most clients do not have the training necessary to differentiate between good and not so good engraving. A certification, however you call it, is an objective tool client should be able to use with confidence assuming that the tool deserve its name

Brian Marshall · Sep 11, 2015

Can't recall ever having been asked for or about a piece of paper and even though I have "earned" some over 45 years - there are none hanging on my walls... in fact I don't even know where they are!

Had someone ever asked for my "qualifications" over past years, I might have made an effort to jump through the hoops to get another one?

By now, it's not likely to change my income, how I feel about myself, my skills or any other important aspect of my life...

Brian

Actually, I am not a "joiner" of many groups. I am on here, I belong to FEGA and distribute their info packages to my students - many of which have joined on my recommendation - but I don't really have the time to participate...

Chujybear · Sep 11, 2015

Thierry Duguet said:
Funny, so many people seem so eager to pretend that a piece of paper does not matter. Everywhere I go, doctor, accountant, lawyers, mechanics, plumbers, hairdressers, all of them are so eager to plaster their “piece of paper” on their wall, are they running out of wall paper, are they covering some sort of defect on their wall?
Something else I read is that client know best, I beg to differ. It is true that some client know, but it is an small minority. As for painting, sculpting, “Art” visual or not, most clients rely on reputation, critics, “Piece of Paper”, and perceive value for the money. The fact is that most clients do not have the training necessary to differentiate between good and not so good engraving. A certification, however you call it, is an objective tool client should be able to use with confidence assuming that the tool deserve its name

difference is they are not allowed to operate within their practice without that ticket

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