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It would be great if some of the highly skilled guys here worked with the Dept of labor which condinates all recongnized apprenticeships in the US. Here is a link http://www.dol.gov/apprenticeship/find-opportunities.htm
I think this is a great way to bring the industry into mainstream. Students can earn a salary while learning a trade in a controlled environment. I would guess it would be a large task to get going but it would change this trade forever here in the Us.
One of the hard things to get around is folks with just a small amount of skill and knowledge seem to earn higher than a good share of the highly skilled. This trade is something you have to love doing it for the sake of doing it. Paying the students well while they are learning would help keep them on the path but if it is just about money they will leave the program and carve out quick and easy money items I would guess.

Yep, and the biggest barrier of all would be ANYTHING that involves the government.

There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be done better, cheaper and faster by private industry or entities.

Excepting of course - wasting money, time and resources - at which all governments excell.

Our own government is the world leader - and has been for as long as I can remember...


Others may wanna try that route, having government get involved - but I won't go near it.

Besides it's probably not attractive enough for government to get involved. Government needs huge programs to properly pee away time and money. (But not always)

Why don't you contact that Labor Dept. yourself? See how long it would take them to set up such a program? Then compare that to how many years you have left to live - to get "free" training?


The second barrier is money. Which is why I solve it in the simple way that I do. Your time for mine. The ratio depending on what each of us needs at that moment and is willing to do.


Thirdly, I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to "bring the industry into the mainstream". There is NO high quality hand engraved work being sold anywhere in the "mainstream"... yet...

Doing that - making it "common" - would bring the price WAY down.


BUT, you can now get your package aboard a plane in San Francisco early Monday morning. Have it engraved in China and back in San Francisco by Friday. So yeah, it may be coming...

This has been going on for some years now. They aren't far off from doing better than average work - from the few pieces I have seen so far. Shouldn't affect the firearms engravers with all the red tape for once serving a useful purpose - but it is already affecting the engraved jewelry and Western silver trade all across the US.

No, it was not me who taught them and set them up.


B.


A perfect example of one size fits all government thinking is the fact that the BATF does not have a separate category for fireams engravers - after all these years and countless requests that they come up with one - for those of us who want nothing to do with buying and selling them on a commercial basis.

Dad of 3 said:

It would be great if some of the highly skilled guys here worked with the Dept of labor which condinates all recongnized apprenticeships in the US. Here is a link http://www.dol.gov/apprenticeship/find-opportunities.htm
I think this is a great way to bring the industry into mainstream. Students can earn a salary while learning a trade in a controlled environment. I would guess it would be a large task to get going but it would change this trade forever here in the Us.
One of the hard things to get around is folks with just a small amount of skill and knowledge seem to earn higher than a good share of the highly skilled. This trade is something you have to love doing it for the sake of doing it. Paying the students well while they are learning would help keep them on the path but if it is just about money they will leave the program and carve out quick and easy money items I would guess.

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Do you mean to say that I should pay an apprentice so I could have the pleasure to teach him a trade. So basically I will be a twice loser, decrease my income, because of time spend teaching, decrease even more my income by having to pay for the pleasure, hummmm, when I learn engraving in Europe I remember having to pay the school, I also remember having to pay for my living expense why should learning engraving be free, don't you pay to send your children to college? Considering that there is no contract which can force an apprentice to work for a give salary and a given amount of time after the apprenticeship is done I do not see how it could be workable. It would be interesting to know from our Swedish friend how they proceed in Sweden, or from any country where they have the same type of certification.
As for the second part of your posting, I know quiet a few engraver who see engraving as a job, like police officer, nurses, teachers, etc some are dedicated some are not engravers are not different. I know that in Belgium most of the engravers working for FN/Browning had a very low skill level but were very good at doing a very specific work. Even here , in the US, I know engraver who do the same thing all the time, they are very efficient, very fast and make very good money that way.

Thierry got it exactly right!

TANSTAAFL - There ain't no such thing as a free lunch...


My swap is as fair as you will ever get. And the students hours go UP in relation to mine - once the basic skills are acquired.

(Unless they have a skill that I highly value and have a real need for... like that of a tree surgeon, at the present moment.)

I don't include free meals or lodging - though if I get more hours or a highly skilled person those things might possibly be worked out.


You keep wanting "free" or wanting to get paid to learn - I'm thinking you are on the wrong forum...

Go find one of those high quality government "training programs". Check the success rate of the "graduates" first.


Brian

Brian - I am a grateful graduate of a "high quality government training program", and owe all I have to the 10 years spent in the Big Green Machine learning my trade & craft.... So it's not all bad. Bob

There are always exceptions Bob.

But I will bet that there weren't many like you - and that YOU personally made it work.

B.

Yep brian I agree that way makes good sense for both parties. I was just meaning to be recognized here in our country the Dept of Labor runs all of this. If someone just wants to learn they go to a teacher if they want to get papers like a masters it is all ran by the dept of Labor.

Yep every single other trade that has an offical path to masters in the US pays students. How on earth are they to live for the years of full time hours they are putting in? My neighbors kid is being paid to train right this second. He gets pre agreed raises 2 times per year full medical and so on. They are investing in him and he is making them money as well. Works both ways.

By the way Brian I would love it if I was closer to you! I would love to trade out time with you and gain some of your knowledge. Frankly you get the short end of the stick on that deal no question about it.

I can tell you a story regarding bein' "recognized" and "educated" that would easily disprove your point - but I haven't time. My job just arrived and I got things to do.


A quick one that might make Carlos and Jephro feel better. My ex has a PHD, as do all her friends. All are university and college teachers. The whole bunch. Not one of them can spel worth a damn.

Nor cares... and these are the people who are teaching the next generations?

That is why you see signs at the street corners here in town that say: "No Pan handling".

I've been tempted to take a frying pan from my kitchen and go stand on the corner to see if I'll get arrested or get a ticket? Why do city employees carry "smart" phones? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhandling


No, I don't think I get the short end of the stick very often... I wouldn't keep doing it if I did.

I am not a computer "mechanic" nor particularly "gifted" (Sams favorite) when it comes to manipulating them. Or organizing my office. Or climbing palm trees for that matter.

All a matter of perspective... most everyone I've had here has something to trade that they can do better or quicker than I can.

Or they can do things that I no longer have the physical ability to do...


Sometimes I'll get lucky and get a bench jeweler or a silversmith who wants to add a skill. Then I may actually get a stage or two of my bench work taken care of for me.


B.


By the way, this short apprenticeship thing that I offer is only once a year or so - and I can't take just anybody - there are a few qualifications that have to be met in order for it to work out for both parties.



On another note - when you leave your environment (shop) for a few weeks it sure looks different when you come back. Not in a good way.

And I suppose if try to test whatever idiot ordinance we now have against handling/holding pans on street corners, they'll probably send a SWAT team - especially if I choose an old "military" cast iron one? For sure, if I choose an "automatic" electric one! What a crazy world we live in...

Yep every single other trade that has an offical path to masters in the US pays students. How on earth are they to live for the years of full time hours they are putting in? My neighbors kid is being paid to train right this second. He gets pre agreed raises 2 times per year full medical and so on. They are investing in him and he is making them money as well. Works both ways.[/QUOTE]

Yep every single other trade that has an offical path to masters in the US pays students. How on earth are they to live for the years of full time hours they are putting in? My neighbors kid is being paid to train right this second. He gets pre agreed raises 2 times per year full medical and so on. They are investing in him and he is making them money as well. Works both ways.[/QUOTE]

My son is starting engineering school in September, I am glad to know that he will receive all the benefit you describe, LOL. As for that part about "he is making them money as well", if you have seen the type of job I get, beside polishing (which I do not often have to do), how much money do you think an apprentice would make for me, how long, how much training will he require before he can even generate enough income to cover a minimum wage income. I for one would not allow an apprentice to work on my customer item until he has reach a level of expertise equal to mine on the specific task he is undertaking.
What you describe may work very well on a large operation but certainly not on a small one. When I came in the US, I work for Ken Hurst who , at the time had the largest hand engraver operation in the US, up to 30 engravers, I can assure you that no one received benefit or income unless you were able to generate revenue for Ken and to tell you the true I find that appropriate.
Lastly there are numerous gunsmith school, why is it that the best pay specialty in the firearms field is not taught. BTW the student in those school do pay for their education. I suppose that the same statement would be true foe jewelery schools.

Good information. Just what I was looking for. I just completed a basic metal engraving course in KS. Very good content and motivating. I observed a student self taught doing very proficient work. This student had been at it about a year. Incredible to me. The instructor was amazing as he demonstrated various techniques. Of course, at it many more years. I am impressed with some of the first practice plates online. Not withstanding the 2-4 year or 10,000 hour theories, personal passion probably plays as important a role as good equipment and knowledge. Fine art skills take time. Talent is probably related to committed energy and time is relative to motion (Einstein). Motion in this case is creative practice and repetition. Engraving is retirement training for me, as is knife making. I dont have forever, so for me the process is more important than the end result. No dillusions about ever being a master. Just being good enough for me is my objective. Observing and appreciating the work of masters is very inspiring. Thanks for this website and the vast knowledge base it contains.

Very good info, thanks to all.

A person with no musical ability goes into a music store and buys a violin. When he comes out he owns a violin. A person with no photographic skills goes into a camera store and buys a camera, when he comes out he is a photographer.

Flatsguide said:

A person with no musical ability goes into a music store and buys a violin. When he comes out he owns a violin. A person with no photographic skills goes into a camera store and buys a camera, when he comes out he is a photographer.

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I've seen some of the photography that results from such photographers instantly turned "pro".

Having read through a bit more than half of the comments on this topic my take on this subject is this:
Not everybody can learn and improve skills in any trade equally fast. I have personally trained several people in the jewellery industry and have seen people learn new skills and perform them at expert level in months and other students took years to reach the same level. Some never got anywhere at all! My stepson was one that excelled at learning and reaching a level of work in 5 years that took me 10 years to attain. To become really good at a profession like goldsmithing and engraving takes focus, determination, a will to improve, excel and the hunger to learn more of your profession.
To me personally you can only be considered a master in your trade when your peers in the same trade view you in that light. Even among the masters there will be differences in style and tendencies to excel in some aspects of the trade above other masters.
In South Africa we have no system to determine the skill level of engravers, setters and goldsmiths. You get judged on your work every time you complete a job and you are only as good as the last job you completed. Harsh? Yes, but a reality here. Sometimes i wish we had a set system to appoint a skill level to people in their trades her in SA as a form of encouragement to improve. Similar to a reward system for those who need a reward system.
This being said the true masters in any field will probably agree that doing the job and improving your own skills is the reward itself! It is a deep seated inner struggle to accomplish the goals you set for yourself and has nothing to do with what others think or feel about your work. In a sense it is an utterly selfish inner quest to reach the highest level and the reward is surprising yourself with what you accomplished. Time being irrelevant in the equation.

I agree with Jan Hendrik for the most part. I have known gun makers who made guns for 55 or 60 years and their last gun looked almost the same as the first one. I find this to be true in most fields. For the most part the length of time in a certain field by itself does not determine the expertise of the craftsman or artist. Caricature traits have more to do with it in my opinion. Some people only want to learn enough to do a certain level of work. They have no incentive to be the best or even attain top level. Grading should be judged by the level of the work one produces. This art form cannot be counterfeited. If you do master work in all required fields you are a master in that field. When a football player gains 2000 years in a season he becomes an all pro. No body asks him if he has been playing long enough to be one. If one was to reverse the question it would be why has it taken so long for some to achieve the master level than others?

I also agree, but while I make every effort to improve with every piece, I have to be able to sell my pieces. I am a jeweler with a specialty in engraving, and price is very important. It would be nice to double or triple the asking price of my pieces, but my home area is somewhat economically challenged.
I experiment with pricing all the time, trying to find that place where things sell, and the balance between cost (time) and price. Sometimes the blocking back that also catches a few passes makes the pro-bowl. At this point, thats my goal.

and in the land of the blind ones, one eye is king!

arnaud

One other major factor that I don't think has been addressed so far is this. In the last 20 years or so knowledge is much more assessable. Since the guild was formed those who wanted to learn the art of engraving had been able to tap into the experience of a dozen or two of the worlds most experienced engravers. There are videos and books that I never even dreamed would exist back when I was in my 20's or even in my 40's . Now there is the internet and sites like this. It is possible to now learn as much in 10 years that would have taken an adult lifetime back then. Therefore it is not that this generation is any smarter but this generation can tap into the knowledge of the past in seconds.
I won't name anybody but when I was in my 20's I wanted to learn engraving but only knew one engraver. All he would tell me is how great he was. The art was a complete mystery.

How does that old saying go?
Overnight success takes about 15 years.
Dan