Can I see some work done entirely with a 38 flat graver?

I've been reading a ton of posts using search and it seems the 38 flat is one of the most used tools by several engravers here. I like the idea of not needing anything fancy to be able to sharpen it. I'm looking for pictures of work done with just this tool.

Well, a flat is a flat, the number just refers to that manufacturers width. Sam has a lettering dvd that he demonstrates script lettering using a flat graver, not sure it's a 38 though. Diane Scalese does a LOT of Western bright cut using flats. You tube may yield some results as well. Bright cut western art like saddle conchos, cantle plates, horn caps, belt buckles and the like are traditionally cut with flats so you can look some of that stuff up.

What exactly is the purpose to this question? Is it because you want to use a #38 flat? or because the sharpening thing is putting you off?

It all depends on what you want to achieve and do with it.

Flats are generally used for background removal, gold inlays, western brightcut, carving or lettering and jewellery applications like stone setting etc.………….Not many people use it for their main cutting tool although I have seen the occasional Eastern European use it as a general cutting tool to superb effect.

As a beginner I wouldn’t recommend it at all for general cutting.. Mainly because it gives you few options and is difficult to control for general cutting. Also the point/edge tends to be very weak. Basically you will be in for a world of hurt of you go down that path.

You would be far better off with a 90 degree V square graver or an onglette that is easy to sharpen by hand. It takes a bit of getting used to but is simple enough with a bit of practice. But you will still need that practice even with flats.

No matter what you do you are still left with the sharpening…….but don’t let that put you off. As you have seen on the forum, there are some really high tech setups with dust extractors, power hones, jigs, templates and goodness knows what else. All of which are nice to have……..but not necessary.

You can sharpen by hand simply by having a couple of decent stones and a 1/4” (???) rod. Plus a bench grinder to shape the gravers up. Sam has posted a video or how to somewhere on the forum. Even for sharpening flats the minimum you would need would be the stones.

At it’s simplest, you can have bulino style graver where you only sharpen the face. This is what Phil Coggan and a lot of Italians use. Or you can have a more conventional shaped graver with a heel that most people use.

Don’t let all the talk of different angles, equipment etc put you off. A lot of that is just tech talk amongst engravers……….. The reality is that sharpening is actually simple. It’s only a matter of getting your head round it. And of course, practice.

Cheers
Andrew

Ya I saw the video Sam has doing some lettering with a flat. Very nice to say the least! I don't know how to tell by looking at a finished engraving what tools the engraver used to do it with. It seems like a new guy like me a flat rolled over onto a corner would be close to a 90 graver but with a different shaped heel.

A 38 flat is good for a few things. But it's not wide enough to do most of the things I would want to do with a flat graver. I'm a western engraver so I use a flat more than any other graver. But if I could only have one graver (which if I understand you right that's what you are after), then I'd think about something like a 105 or a 110 that could be used as a single point or leaned over to make a bright cut. It's a more versatile tool. You can tip a flat graver up on a corner and use it like a single point, but unless you are pretty competent engraver, it's going to be easier just to run a single point. JMO

Stewart

Andrew the reason I thought a flat would be best to start with is after searching a ton of old posts several said if they only had 2 gravers it would be a 90 and a flat. Yes my limited means here to sharpen came into play thinking it would be better to start with, maybe not. I should have said what work we would like to at some point do. Coming from blacksmithing I like the look of sculpted pieces and moving metal around is something I have many years expierence with already just not work that small. I want to learn how to do bright cut work as it fits with with the buckles and pendants we are doing, which is what made me look at engraving. A western buckle even with a nice intricate overlay looks too plain without some engraving work done to them. My oldest son wants to do lettering and deep relief work.

Stewart, I was thinking the wider angles would make it too hard to push. From what I found on the search some go down to 60 to be easier to push engrave. There is so much info on this site once I found a better way to search that it is info overload lol. I think I just need to jump on the pond and see how it goes. I tend to swim upstream I guess

If you are going to hand push, you may want to change your face and heel angles--the up and down angles. The width of the graver shouldn't matter. I use a single point quite often for bright cutting and for me a wider one, like a 110 or 115, works better. But I don't push much, I mostly use an air assist. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

Stewart

Here's the rub with all the different angles mentioned above. There's nothing wrong with them..............but

You are back to using a jig of some sort. The standard square graver which is 90 degrees (hence the name square) you can sharpen by hand with the only aid being a 1/4" (???) rod.

If you are interested in bright cut then research "Western Brightcut" as that is the area where flats are most commonly used for the main cutting. It is a style all on its own.

Cheers
Andrew

Yes, you are right. Just do it. Buy a handle, buy a graver and have a go........don't overthink or over research it. It'll drive you nuts. By doing it a lot of your questions will be answered just by having a go.

Hi Andrew I see where people use flats for final convex curves in sculpturing. I have a lot of trouble with that, so I made a jig to to put a concave curve in a flat.....This worked really well but is hard to repeat the perfect curve polishing and the very small heel .....I don't know if others do this or they perfect the convex curve with a flat....May you can share your wisdom on this.....thanks

Bob

Yes, you are right. Just do it. Buy a handle, buy a graver and have a go........don't overthink or over research it. It'll drive you nuts. By doing it a lot of your questions will be answered just by having a go.[/QUOTE]

Yep I just learn by doing. My biggest roadblock is drawing. I've always been able to move the metal into what I have in my mind but putting it down on paper is a different story so I need to work on that.

May you can share your wisdom on this.....thanks

Click to expand...

Hah........not sure about the wisdom part

I have to be honest with you. Yes I did perfect curve polishing by buying a dual angle sharpening fixture.......... Best money I've ever spent.

When I started hand engraving I sharpened by hand and I got competent at it. Not good, just competent. It was hit and miss. Sometimes sharp, sometimes not so sharp. Very seldom consistent. But all in all I muddled through and could cut metal......... So I'm no expert in this area.

To sharpen a flat with a rocked heel (convex) you push it forward and backward raising and lowering your hand as you go. It's not a sideways movement. You have your rod sitting on the stone and that acts as a fulcrum for the forward and backward movement.

The dual angle fixture makes sharpening a lot easier and far more consistent. You can do it on the cheap by getting a fixture and putting a diamond wheel on a drill press which most home handymen seem to have.You only need the wheel turning for the face. The heels are always done with the wheel stationary.

As for drawing.........start with basics stuff like drawing a scroll and leaf. Start big and keep your lines very light. Then gradually come back and refine the work. It is a skill like any other and can be learned. It doesn't have to complicated or ornate. Keep it simple to start with and work at it consistently every day. Small steps lead to bigger steps.

Cheers
Andrew

PS.....If you are interested in western bright cut.......then I am unsure of how much drawing you need to do. It looks to me that you do a basic layout and after that it is all bold cuts. It is an area that I know little about but perhaps there are other members on the forum that could elaborate. Diane Scalese has put out a set of DVD's about the subject and she is as good as you can get with bright cutting.

Diane Scaese videos would give you all the help you need to make brite cut engraving. I have seen them and would recommend for a beginner,

Yep her western bright cut video is on my list. I just enrolled 2 boys in trade school today so need to let that future bill digest for a day or 2 lol. Proud of them for knowing what they want and making the effort to build the skills needed to do it.

I only started carving nickels about two months ago but so far I've found that you can actually accomplish quite a lot with very little. I have a couple of gravers made from concrete nails sharpened by hand. Those along with a few other tools I already had have allowed me to get my feet wet. Total outlay so far is about $20. That includes about $5 for some nickels to practice on. The learning curve is definitely steeper when you are going it on your own with homemade tools but it is possible.

Take a look at me galley to see what I've been able to do so far. Its not the caliber of most of the work here but I'm proud of it and it shows that you don't need to spend a lot to get started.

yes, the forum is overloaded with information. a shame, too few avail themselves of that information.