Impact speed affect the look of the cut?

Dad of 3

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I have heard several say the slower speed of the Magnagraver can make the engraving appear more like H&C work. I assume this is just at its lowest capable speeds. At what point does the cuts appear smooth assuming the graver is sharpened correctly? Looking at the enset videos, which I love watching, I never heard that machine run anywhere near as fast as the Lindsay units or GRS. Not sure that makes any difference or not. Does the Enset ability to go slower help someone new?
 

Andrew Biggs

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Does the Enset ability to go slower help someone new?

Unfortunately people think because it reciprocates slower they have more control.........it is all in their heads.

The fact is..........It is all about controlling the tool with your eye/hand. The speed the tool is reciprocating at is totally irrelevant to that eye/hand control of that tool.

How many engravers are asked to replicate H/C work? Sweet bugger all. The reality is that 99.9% of clients, family, friends, spouses, etc that you do work for don't give a rats. If you want to replicate H/C then buy a hammer and chisel and do it properly.

Cheers
Andrew
 
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Tira

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Andrew, I respect your opinion, but on this point we disagree.

As most people know on this forum, I've been using the EnSet for years, and I also sell them.

I have found that the speed of the tool (slower speed) coupled with the fact that you can change the stroke length on the EnSet allow you to have the full spectrum from very defined progress marks through smooth and mirror cuts.

What Andrew has said about learning to control any tool with your eye/hand coordination is true, but if you have the ability to slow down in certain areas (think over a gun barrel or on the side of a domed ring) then overall you have more control in those areas if you wish to slow down. That's what I have found along with others who use this tool.

The EnSet works differently than the other tools on the market in that you decide the speed second by second via the foot pedal for what you are doing (strait vs. curved vs. working around an obstacle, etc.) rather than training yourself to keep up with the tool. There has been beautiful work done by all the tools so it is a matter of preference and what you are looking for. All the tools work, just not the same way.
 

Beathard

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I don't think slower speed gives you more control. It gives you more time to fix lack of control before it becomes a major problem.
 

Lonestarr

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Hi Tira Question Please explain how a EnSet works differently than a Lindsay which has stroke control and foot control on speed .....Just curious since I thought they were pretty much all the same......Thanks Bob
 

Tira

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Lonestarr, Both the Lindsay and the EnSet control the speed by the pedal. One of the main differences is that the Lindsay is always vibrating (stroking, idling, whatever you want to call it). The EnSet starts from no movement of the piston. For straight away active engraving they both control the speed via the foot pedal, but the Lindsay starts at whatever the idyll is and increases its stroke speed from there where the EnSet starts from zero and builds the speed from a dead stop. When you want to hit something once you can not do this with the Lindsay and you can with the EnSet.

Examples of where this may be helpful would be in sculpting a ridge line or other fine detail, pushing a bead just a skootch more and not jumping off the bead and hitting the stone, inlaying gold where it hits once and doesn't work harden everything by repeated vibration. All these operations (sculpting, setting, inlaying) may be done with all the different types of pneumatic equipment or by hand. The EnSet gives more control at a slower speed for these types of operations.
 

Lonestarr

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Tira Thanks for the reply, In the old days when I was a Instrument Specialist we did a lot of pneumatic work, so from that experience I believe that the Lindsay design is to eliminate dead band or to give instant acceleration of the piston which gives you a very responsive foot control. When the idle is set proper and the bit is touching the surface it is really hard to tell if the piston is moving. I think what this boils down to is two different ways of doing the same thing....Thanks for your very good explanation...

Bob
 
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In my short experience with the Enset I just bought, Beathard is correct. I have time between each hit to observe the direction of the cut and adjust before I'm off the road and out in the weeds.

However, the GRS Gravermach I owned could also throttle back and slow down. As Andrew says, it's a matter of learning the tool and getting your muscle memory to take over.

In regards to using to using H&C, I like the look of H&C and would love to learn it, but I only have one arm. So, the Enset gives me exactly what i want.

That's an outside case I understand.

Either system is more accurate than the human running it. If accuracy is your goal. I have looked at some CNC engraving that used tangential tool control, very precise, just doesn't look right though. A tiny bit of variation done properly looks good in my opinion. I just have to get to that "tiny" bit. My variation is too large! Ha!

Regards,

Matt
 

Dad of 3

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So at what impact per minute speed does the cuts look smooth and not have the h&c look? In other words can all the systems go fast enough to make clean lines (Enset, Lindsay, GRS, Magnagraver)? On the slower side the only systems able to do single hit are the Enset and Magnagraver? Many years spent blacksmithing, I can't recall a single Smith ever tell me the faster he could swing the hammer the more control he had. I'm not understanding that but I do understand all tools have a plus and minus to them and all need to be worked with to develop control.
 

Sam

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So at what impact per minute speed does the cuts look smooth and not have the h&c look? In other words can all the systems go fast enough to make clean lines (Enset, Lindsay, GRS, Magnagraver)? On the slower side the only systems able to do single hit are the Enset and Magnagraver? Many years spent blacksmithing, I can't recall a single Smith ever tell me the faster he could swing the hammer the more control he had. I'm not understanding that but I do understand all tools have a plus and minus to them and all need to be worked with to develop control.

At my normal stoke speed which is set between 23 and 33 on the dial, the cuts are extremely smooth. So what I'm saying is expect your cuts to be very smooth at all speeds except the very bottom end. I use a Gravermach AT and I would have to make a special effort to replicate a hammer & chisel look.
 

zzcutter

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I might add to this conversation that I engraved with Hammer and chisel for about 30 years and in that time I owned a GRS system which I never really could get the hang of it just seemed to have a mind of its own. I just always liked the control of the Hammer and chisel. But the past few years my interest in the newer tools had me icthing to give them a try again. After much research and trying the different types. I choose the Enset machine.
I can't get over the control I have with this machine. The first time I used it was on a project and had no issues it was like I had always used one. Every time I use it I think this is like using my hammer and chisel super control. You can work it a one hit at a time and once you get in the direction you want to go give it the gas. Also when your in very tight places you can just do one or two hits and you achieve what was needed and still in control.
So after using the Enset for about two years I think for a beginner this is the best system out there as well as for a veteran of the engraving arts.

Just my two cents. ZZ
 

Andrew Biggs

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The simple fact is that all three air systems may have internal/engineering/operating differences but they all have two things in common. They all need air and they all have a reciprocating action.

It is really important to understand that the reciprocating action does not give the tool any forward momentum………….what gives the tool forward momentum is your hand. So it does not matter weather the tool is reciprocating at 1 beat, 1000 beats or 10000 beats.

In simple terms they are nothing more than an air hammer………..it is the tool that you put in the end of that hammer that is the most important part.

I would suggest that if you are breaking stones, slipping, losing control or whatever, then it has more to do with external problems that are not related to the hammer being held in your hand……….things like poor control, poor technique, lack of concentration, lack of skill, tools breaking or not formed properly. Or simply because #$%^ happens.

All tools can create works of art or a butchers mess. Weather you buy GRS, Lindsay, Enset or whatever is irrelevant. All of that is just personal preference and we are all biased toward our own tools……….At the end of the day, what truly makes a difference is your imagination, skill, eye/hand coordination and technique.

Just to clarify…….this is no criticism or praise of any particular tool. It is simple fact.

Cheers
Andrew
 

grumpyphil

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The simple fact is that all three air systems may have internal/engineering/operating differences but they all have two things in common. They all need air and they all have a reciprocating action.

It is really important to understand that the reciprocating action does not give the tool any forward momentum………….what gives the tool forward momentum is your hand. So it does not matter weather the tool is reciprocating at 1 beat, 1000 beats or 10000 beats.

In simple terms they are nothing more than an air hammer………..it is the tool that you put in the end of that hammer that is the most important part.

I would suggest that if you are breaking stones, slipping, losing control or whatever, then it has more to do with external problems that are not related to the hammer being held in your hand……….things like poor control, poor technique, lack of concentration, lack of skill, tools breaking or not formed properly. Or simply because #$%^ happens.

All tools can create works of art or a butchers mess. Weather you buy GRS, Lindsay, Enset or whatever is irrelevant. All of that is just personal preference and we are all biased toward our own tools……….At the end of the day, what truly makes a difference is your imagination, skill, eye/hand coordination and technique.

Just to clarify…….this is no criticism or praise of any particular tool. It is simple fact.

Cheers
Andrew

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