Federal Firearms License discussion

Sam

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I plan to make this thread a sticky in the Tips Archive, so those of you who have FFL's please share what you know with those who might be interested in pursuing gun engraving.

Thanks! / Sam
 

fegarex

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One of the big catches in getting the FFL is local zoning laws. That would be where you might check first. Some places are picky as to having a "gun shop" in a residential area. Make sure you go to them with the fact that this will be more of a "studio" that requires a federal license rather than a retail establishment. I may not work but might help.
 

Tira

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Rex you bring up a good point. My town was very picky about granting zoning for the FFL. I finally was allowed to have the FFL, but only if I have no sign and no clients come to the "studio." The only trucks they will allow to come on a daily basis is UPS or FedEx, etc. That doesn't hurt me because almost everything I do goes through the mail, or I go to the gun shops to pick-up/drop-off the parts. An occasional client can stop by too, but not a huge number on a rotating basis. The local zoning was probably the hardest hurdle to get over in getting my FFL.
 

shonn

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Do all gun engravers need a FFL license?
If you are only doing engraving on parts of a gun do you need the FFL?
Any time you touch a gun do you need a FFL?
 

pilkguns

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If you keep a customer's gun (defined as the reciever only, not other parts) for a commercial purpose in your possession for more than 24 hours then you are supposed to have an FFL. Thats the letter of the law.

If you only do it as a hobby for freinds, I wouldn't worry to much about it. If you are shippin guns back and forth to clients, gunsmiths, refinishers etc, yea, you better have one.
 

Tira

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Shonn, You do not need an FFL to engrave on you own guns. You do not need an FFL to engrave on many parts of guns (sights, grip caps, floor plates, etc.). You do need an FFL to have posession of the frame/receiver of anyone else's gun overnight. That would be any parts that have registration/serial numbers on them. There has been discussion about if "overnight" means past midnight or in a 24 hour period - I've heard various sides to that argument. However, if you are working on a gun for someone else and need to take more than a day to do it - which most gun engraving does - you would need an FFL to take posession and hold the gun leagally until you give it back to the client. This would fall under the type 01 gunsmith FFl license.
 

James Wark

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Along with the zoning issue, you will need to have established hours, "by appointment only" will not work.
The ATF inspector will come to your location to check it out before granting the license.
Jim
 

dclevinger

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I've been dealing with thr ATF for about twelve years now and have never had a peroblem. One thing that I have learned is to call the local field office if you have any questions about the many regulations. They've always been very helpful and it's better to ask a seemingly silly question than break a serious rule.

David
 

Ray Cover

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I don't have a lot of time this morning but I am going to throw my 2 cents in on this.

I may not remember everything off the top of my head so if I forget something I am sure others will fill in the gaps.

If you are going to engrave guns you need an FFL period. It only cost a couple hundred bucks or so for the initial application and first three years. Each renewal after that is $90 for the next three years. If you can't afford $30 a year to keep your shop legal you frankly can't afford to be in business as an engraver.

Reasons why. WHen I have more time I will try to post the page and article numbers out of the BATFE handbook to these.

1. The BATFE considers engravers as gunsmiths and requires us to have the same licensing

2. You have to have an FFL to ship and receive firearms that do not belong to you personally.

3. If you are keeping the gun on your shop premises for more than 24 hrs you are required to have an ffl.

Yes, if you are going to engrave guns you need an FFL.

I hear all kinds of LOOPHOLES that people bring up when this subject comes up.

The first is almost always this. As long as you are engraving through a gun shop you can work under their FFL. Well, this is sort of true and sort of not depending on the situation. If you are an employee of that gun shop and the work is being done on their premises then you can work under their shop license. However, if you are not an employee of that shop this does not apply to you. The intent of this rule is to allow a shop to have one ffl and not require every single employee of the shop to have one. However, it is not there to allow subcontractors to work under that shop's FFL. You cannot have the shop receive the gun for you under their FFL then take it home and engrave it. Likewise you cannot work as a subcontractor for that shop in which you take work home and engrave for them. You are suppose to be a formal employee to work under their license and the work is to be done on their business site.

The other one I hear is well if your only engraving for friends or family you don't need an FFl. As long as you don't violate # 1,2, or 3 above this may be true. But it is going to be awful hard to engrave any gun without violating one of those three guidelines. It is the BATFE's intent that an FFL is for people in a for profit business and they will not issue you one if you are not in business. But how long are any of you willing to engrave guns for free? I have never found a hard fast ruling on this yet. Maybe I have just overlooked it but........... I would not risk it. Chances are that if you got caught in this situation the law enforcement agencies that got involved would not make anything of it. On the other hand you may find yourself in court on the day after the judges wife files for divorce and says "I want half". $30 a year is not worth taking the risk.

The other one I hear is,"Well I called my local ATF guy I explained things to him and he said I did not need to worry about it." Well there are several things wrong with this.

It assumes that every BATFE employee is competent and knows what he is talking about. The thing you have to keep in mind here is that the engraving end of the BATFE regulations is the smallest most minute part of what they have to deal with. Most ATF agents may only have to deal with the regulations for engravers once in a career. We are not top priority on their offender list so most of them are not too familiar with what we require off the top of their heads. Everytime I call with a question (even when I call my regional office in GA) the agent almost always has to stop and go look it up to make sure he/she is telling me the right thing. Point is don't assume that just because they are an ATF agent that they know the entire law code by wrote memory and are giving you correct information.

If you are going to engrave gujns and expect to get any kind of pay for it you need to cover your butt and get an FFL. $30 a year is a cheap price to pay to keep yourself out of trouble.

my two cents,

Ray
 

Tira

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Ray, you bring up a great point about the ATF. When they came to my studio the ATF agent had no idea about engraving on guns as part of the gunsmith license. I showed her my tools and everything was kosher, but she said that her office had never in the knowledge of the current agents granted an "engraver" this type of license. They were not disputing the fact that I should have one, but none of them knew how to answer my questions.

Furthermore, I went to a regional ATF symposium on training a couple of months ago and stayed after to ask questions of the more senior field agents who were giving the speach. They told me that I should trade in my type 01 for a type 07 manufacturing license because if I were to buy a gun, engrave the gun, and then sell the gun in the altered format that it could be considered "manufacturing" and I could get in trouble. They told me that they look for certain markers in the paperwork about what changes on the gun - and engraving - in their opinion - could put me in the "manufacturing" category. I haven't had the time to track all of the ins and outs of that problem yet, but this was the upper people at the ATF in my region. So... the moral of this story is that the ATF is very helpful, but does not deal with engravers very much and so does not usually have the answers I have needed on the tip of its tounge. It usually takes them a while to research and get back to me and it has taken me educating them, to some extent, as to what I do.
 

pilkguns

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Tira, this 07 license thing is old news, and horribly misinformed, but this is the whole problem with goverment bureacracies. Tis battle was fought and for engravers and most custom gunmakers, won 4 or 5 years ago. Do some searches on FEGA or wherever, but this was a major issue that was resolved in our favor.
 

ron p. nott

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here is a question that i have been getting and i don't have the answer for ..when a customer drops off a firearm to me for engraving and when i finish it do i have to do a back ground check and fill out all of the paper work on him as though he was buying his gun back .. r?????????? ron p.
 

pilkguns

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if its his gun , you just log it out of your books as returned to owner. Nothing else. At least thats the Fed side. Some states may have extra requirements.
 

John B.

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There was a lot of information and mis-information published regarding the Class 7 manufacturing license being required by engravers and custom gunmakers a few years ago.
This issue was settled in our favor and we were only required to have an O-1 dealers license when the dust settled.
It was an attempt to collect federal Excise Tax on custom guns and engraving as is required to be paid by major firearms manufactures as I recall.
If I remember correctly the Custom Gunmakers Guild newsletter published the final facts on this matter.
Jan Billeb, Editor of their newsletter is very familiar with this subject and may be able to give you the information on the final government regulations that were enacted to cover this matter.
The information given to our friend Tira at the BATF meeting by senior officers goes to show that there is still a lot of uninformed officials in government departments.
Just too many regulations for them to keep up on.
Seven out of ten wrong answers to questions asked of the IRS tends to bear this out.
Best to all, John B.
 

James Wark

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Hi Ron,

No background check is needed if you return the firearm to the person you recieved it from. If someone else picks it up I am told a background check must be done.


Jim
 

KCSteve

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Question: If you restrict yourself to guns on the C&R (Curios & Relics) list is a type 03 (C&R) FFL sufficient?
I'm thinking it probably isn't because the 03 is intended for collectors and you will get in trouble if they decide that you're using it 'commercially' (which is why I think engraving would not be allowed with an 03).
 

FANCYGUN

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When I was living back in New York State. I had to fill out a form and send it to the NYS Police that I received a handgun for work. For rifles this was not necessary. I also had to log it back out when I returned the gun with the same form....This is in addition to the regular federal bookwork required with my FFL. Handguns had to be registered in NYS so in essence I was registering the gun to me for the duration of the work that I was doing on it.
You might also need a state license to engrave guns in addition to your FFL.
In NYS I had a NYS dealers license and a NYS gunsmithing license.
Of course this is also in addition to having to have a resale tax number since you are a business.
 

Ray Cover

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Ron,

As long as the gun is going back to the owner of the gun. No paperwork or background check is needed. They already own it they have already gone through whatever background checks were required to purchase it.

Now if the owner sends you the gun and you are to send it to another person working on it you need a copy of the thrid party's FFL to keep on file and record the release in your books as going to that third party.

For example:

This recent Colt I did for Rob.

Rob sent the Colt to Turbull's for stripping and cleaning up. Doug sent it to me for engraving. Then I sent it back to Doug for bluing and then Doug sent it back to Rob.

Rob owned the gun. Nothing was needed for rob to send the gun to me or to Turnbull's. Nothing was needed for either of us to send the gun back to Rob.

Turnbull Restoration and I had to send each other a copy of our FFLs in order to send the gun back and forth between us.

Now I do not know about the background check and all that if an outside party is involved. For example lets say Rob wanted me to send the gun to his dad who lives on the other end of the state from him. I personally would not do that unless his dad had his own FFL. That transfer needs to be carried out between Rob and his dad. As businessmen we do not need to be getting tangled up in those kind of transactions. IF something did go wrong and that last party got in trouble with the gun I would be willing to bet money your butt would be in a sling for not sending it to a licensed FFL or the original owner.

My 2 cents.

Ray
 
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shonn

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I live in SW Florida , I went down to the Zone commission today to see if my house could be used to get the FFL even though I would not be selling the guns ,only engraving, I am not allowed to get the license in my area . Bummer looks like I will be doing some other form of engraving.
here is a link to what the law of zoneing is i dont fully understand ( the * is where they said its importanit)

it.http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t126/shonnpaul/jumble%20of%20pitchers/Tendril5.jpg
 
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