Help, please: Beginner with questions regarding tools

Chankyi

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Dec 18, 2014
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Hi everyone! I'm new to the forums and to engraving, I am a watchmaking student and apprentice.

I wish to take up hand push engraving and had read some old books and searched the internet regarding engraving. I am planning to make my purchases for basic engraving setup which will last as this has been in my consideration for a very long time.

As I will likely to be engraving watch movements and the likes, I presume the max diameter would be somewhere to be 50mm. Apart from gravers, I suppose the next most important tool would be the vise.

What vise would you recommend me to buy? I am planning to get a GRS MicroBall vise with 30 piece attachment. Alternatively, the china made ball vise.

Thanks everyone!
 

silverchip

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Absolutely do not overlook sharpening equipment. YOu can have all the best tools in the world but for hand push engraving, if they are not sharp you can not begin to do the job well.
 

Marrinan

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There are several watch makers on this and the Lindsay forum. Some from Switzerland and beyond. They will be able to to give you the best advise. Sam is also a watchmaker. Best of luck, Fred

PS Use the search tool under watch at the top of the page FM
 

Chankyi

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Dec 18, 2014
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Thanks guys! Is it possible to sharpen by hand? I might not have that much finance to accommodate a sharpening system. Would the micro ball be sufficient?
 

Andrew Biggs

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I would advise against the micro block vise. It is a bit small and not heavy enough.

If you are going to push by hand (or air assist) you want something with weight and mass that resists your pushing. Otherwise your left hand (the one holding the vise) is going to continually be forcing back to keep everything balanced. You'll find it gets very tiresome after a short period of time.

You would be better off with a low profile vise or a standard ball vise. They both provide a good working platform for watches. Weight and mass stops your vise from tipping over all the time.

Depending on the watches that you intend to engrave you may find that pushing by hand is not a good option...........something like 316L stainless is hard and gummy and there are a lot of differences between cast and machined. A lot of the older fob watches were made of softer materials that were relatively easy to engrave by hand. Not so these days.

But hey, you have to start somewhere and getting started is the main thing :)

And yes, you can sharpen by hand quite successfully. It takes a while to get used to it but it's simple enough.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Chankyi

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Dec 18, 2014
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Thank you so much Andrew and silverchip! I would try to raise my budget to attain the standard vise, after some thought i figured that I should purchase a bigger and heavier vise since its almost gonna last me awhile. I fear that i might want an upgrade soon after buying the microblock. I really want to get started soon.

The watch movements that I will likely be working on are mostly brass and german silver. Unless I start working on cases (which won't be anytime).
 

Kevin Scott

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I am also a watchmaker and a hobbyist hand push engraver.

For a a vise, an older jewelers vise, about 12 to 14 lbs. will be fine. Can buy on Ebay for about $125.00 to $300.00. A more antique tall type in the 8 to 10 lb should also work, and should cost less.

A vise is great to have, but alot of great hand push work is done without one. Especially on small flat work.

I would put a good sharpening system ahead of a vise. When I started learning engraving from books, I thought I knew all concerning sharpening gravers from sharpening gravers for hand held watch lathe work. Boy was I wrong. With engraving a very sharp and strong point is needed. With watch lathe gravers you only need a very sharp point about 5% or less of the time. And it does not have to be that strong. Also, the geometry of the square graver in engraving is critical. Not so much with lathe work, since the position of your hand and tool rest etc can compensate for a change in geometry or different geometries.

A GRS multi angle fixture, and a way to rough out the gravers quickly to me is way more important than a vise. Because the proper geometry is so important, in addition to sharpness. Check out in the search function, drill press setup as a cheap alternative to a power hone. If you don't have a drill press, they are handy for a watchmaker to have anyway.

I have about 6 or 7 Lindsay templates. It is a great system, but for me none of his geometries for square gravers are suitable for hand pushing. Most, but not all hand pushers seem to agree.

You can hand sharpen, and it is not to hard to end up with very sharp gravers. But it is not easy getting to the proper geometry on a square graver. My system is to rough out the graver using fixtures and a power hone, and then hand resharpen until the geometry does not seem right. I made a gauge - template to check the graver angles. Really hard to eyeball if the geometry is correct and symmetrical.

And don't bother with buying a Crocker tool. Spend the extra money for a GRs multi angle fixture. And if it turns out engraving is not for you, they are easy to resell, and have a very high resale value. Or keep it for sharpening your lathe gravers, even though it is sort of overkill.
 

Sam

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It is a great system, but for me none of his geometries for square gravers are suitable for hand pushing. Most, but not all hand pushers seem to agree.

Agreed. I don't use Lindsay sharpeners but it's been my experience that geometries for handpiece gravers and hand-push gravers is vastly different depending on what I cutting. I can do crosshatching and some fine line shading with a 45/15 square or 105 with short heel, but if I were to do anything else I would use a graver with a significantly larger heel as they are far more cooperative than my micro heel gravers I use in chisels and handpieces.

I love to joke about the old Crocker sharpener, saying it makes a good decoy weight for duck hunting, but some people have used them and like them. I can't name one right off, but that's the rumor. :cool:
 

mitch

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the reason parallel heels are not well-suited for hand push is because they slightly narrow the graver face. in other words, if you can imagine looking straight at the graver face along the axis of the heel (where the heel facets meet), parallel heel facets actually make the cutting face slightly smaller than the bulk of the graver behind it. it's wedging itself into the metal as you go.

parallel heels do have some advantages, especially when tipped to one side (then they cut like a skewed flat graver), but this wedging effect increases cutting resistance which is problematic for hand pushing.
 

silverchip

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I don't know Mitch, I use them and traditional geometries on square gravers as well. I do keep in mind the length of the heels and how that affects the way they cut. I guess that there is a learning curve to what ever technique you use.
 

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