Question: background removal?

griff silver · Dec 13, 2014

it seems to take me forever to cut away back ground. i think it looks best to cut it away, then clean up with a small flat, stipple etc..... is it acceptable to use rotary for background even if the finish is less than its best.... again budget question. here a pic of my yesterday project for a pal. not happy with the background but it is what it is. Thoughs on how yall do it?

Marrinan · Dec 13, 2014

Looks near perfect to me. I think sometimes people enhance the backgrounds with Photoshop. Could say for sure but sometimes I thinks I'm right. I was just re-reading Lees book and going through the videos for fifth or sixth time-One of his main points is the budget determines how much wok can be invested. It is a beautiful knife by the way. Fred

JJ Roberts · Dec 13, 2014

griff,I use a single point graver to cross hatch and remove the background and then stipple,don't trust myself with a rotary tool.One slip and you have problems,rather spend the extra time and be safe. J.J.

Donny · Dec 13, 2014

I would say there are many who use a rotary tool for removal. But those I have spoke to, that do, go on to use a stipple technique to enhance a flat bottom/floor which in turn gives a much better presentation. I have a rotary NSK Presto...have yet to use for background removal...because I haven't practiced with it enough. When I have a part in the vise I just do what I know...cut lines, then cross them, then flats. Either way will get you there. This is the one area of engraving where I wish the technology was here to "BEAM OUT" the background

(yes I used a Star Trek reference in the forum...two points to Donny!)

Donny

JJ Roberts · Dec 13, 2014

The rotary tool's have a very high speed that's not easy to control,if you lose control you can spend hour's repairing that slip.I engrave guns and can't afford to make mistakes take your time get the job done and stay out of trouble. J.J.

Ed Westerly · Dec 13, 2014

I have tried a root tool for background removal, and it would be very fast if you have PERFECT control. I guess that could be achieved, but the skill would have to be developed. I only use one when the steel is too hard for a flat. Otherwise I use a 365 or 37 flat for right up against the scroll, and the largest flat that fits across the middle. Then I stipple and clean up any overruns into the scrollwork (this gets to be less and less as you improve in skill level).

Big-Un · Dec 13, 2014

I sometimes use a dental drill for background removal but find I MUST have my breathing under control in order to keep the tool steady. I also do it under the scope at a very high setting. Not too sure its worth the effort.

GTJC460 · Dec 14, 2014

The only way to remove background fast is with acid. I've tried it and it does work great. You must paint the surface with "chip out ground." It's like a shellac type liquid that when dry will chip out exactly where you've cut your outlines.

Rotary tools are very nice and will speed things up on manual removal, but it's very easy to mess things up.

The etching stuff can all be bought through Cronite in NJ.

Warning...it's not cheap and it's dangerous. For stainless you use nitric acid. For mild steel or other varieties of steel that are suspect to rust, ferric chloride will do the trick.

I will say again there's really no cheap, easy or fast way to remove background. It's my least favorite part of any job. And on highly curved surfaces manually removing it is really the only method.

Sam · Dec 14, 2014

Marrinan said:
I think sometimes people enhance the backgrounds with Photoshop. Could say for sure but sometimes I thinks I'm right.

If backgrounds are done right Photoshop enhancements are not necessary.

I use a 105Â° graver to outline the background areas and to remove the bulk of the metal. I then use an NSK micromotor to take out the rest. JJ is right in that you cannot afford a slip with a bur. It will ruin your work and ruin your day in the blink of an eye, so you best be very proficient with it. When using a bur, I rest both hands/fingers securely on the top of the vise to make a solid platform for controlling the micromotor handpiece. If your work is mounted high and your hands can't get a SOLID rest, you're treading on very thin ice. Lower the work down inside the vise so you can brace your hands and fingers securely.

Lastly, I stipple with quite a bit of power at 5,200 SPM with a sharp, needle point carbide tool. This will hide most of the bur and graver marks in my background.

Yours look pretty good to me. I think some more aggressive stippling can smooth out the tool marks I'm seeing.

Jan Hendrik · Dec 14, 2014

Sam, I find that when I try to stipple with some power the carbald graver tips tend to break easily. I don't know if it the fault of the particular stainless steel, my technique or the power setting on my Lindsay classic. I do this at 50psi pressure and with only the first vent hole exposed on the hand piece and just barely stepping on the throttle. If I only expose about a third of the first vent hole on the handpiece I have less problems with the tips breaking, but the stippling comes our very fine.

Sam · Dec 14, 2014

Jan Hendrik said:
Sam, I find that when I try to stipple with some power the carbald graver tips tend to break easily. I don't know if it the fault of the particular stainless steel, my technique or the power setting on my Lindsay classic. I do this at 50psi pressure and with only the first vent hole exposed on the hand piece and just barely stepping on the throttle. If I only expose about a third of the first vent hole on the handpiece I have less problems with the tips breaking, but the stippling comes our very fine.

I don't use Lindsay equipment so I can't tell you how to adjust it for stippling. What I can tell you is that it's rare for me to break carbide points when stippling. I don't stipple anything extra hard though. Mostly mild engravable materials. I've been using carbide for stippling for 15 years or so without any problems.

There's nothing wrong with stippling tools made from HSS. They just dull faster than carbide and as they dull the color of the stippling usually changes.

Gemsetterchris · Dec 14, 2014

Jan, someone will chip in with a combo with abit of luck...finding the right psi & collar position takes abit of experimentation on different materials.
I don't normally stray above 30 psi & know the tool has far more potential if I could be bothered to test.

KCSteve · Dec 14, 2014

When I stipple with my Lindsay I have it just barely open - very short stroke length. Going in too deep both leaves big holes and makes it easier to break the tip.

For removal I use the 'Mr. The' flat template. It's a flat with angled sides - somewhat like the Scorper graver sometimes discussed here. If you're not using the Lindsay templates you could just take a 120 and put a flat across the bottom. Leave a bit of the angled sides. This shape lets you get up close to the cut lines while still having some clearance on the sides.

I've also recently tried Barry Lee Hands' suggestion of using a round graver for background removal. I'm going to have to do more of it. The initial tests were quite interesting. The round makes it easier to not mar your sidewalls but I still wound up with a reasonably flat area - usually flat enough to stipple without further modification.

On the rare occasions I use my rotary for removal it's very fast. But then I tend to have to go over the areas with flat to clean up all the little dips and divots which winds up making it take about the same amount of time.

I've come to the conclusion that in engraving it's the design that makes the money and the background treatment that costs the time. In my thinking the number one thing you have to consider for budgeting is how much of what sort of background you're going to do.

Ed Westerly · Dec 14, 2014

I find that when I am breaking tips it is because I'm using too much hand pressure on the stippling tool. I find that what works best is to view the stippler as an airbrush, and let it kind of "float" over the surface, just barely making contact and running it at 5200+rpm.

Marrinan · Dec 15, 2014

Sometimes I use a .05 ball burr as a stippling point. I think they do a real good job of coloring as they create five or six little cuts each time they strike to defuse and trap light from all directions. Captures the light real well. fred

thughes · Dec 15, 2014

I will sometimes use my rotary in those intermediate sized areas. But I first cut a safety boarder I guess you'd call it around the outside of the background area with my little tiny flat, the go to town with the rotary. It helps me to avoid mistakes by just cutting up yo to that bright shiny safety line. If I get into it a little, I'm still good.

Todd

Ed Westerly · Dec 15, 2014

But only a little!

Question: background removal?

griff silver

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