Soldering bezel after bright cut??

rossm10

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Is it possible to solder a bezel into place after you have bright cut the immediate perimeter area of where the bezel will be?? Does the heat and pickling ruin the bright cut??
Thanks,
Ross
 

silverchip

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Yes, You must use lots of flux and heat it up slowly as to not melt all of the flux away and be very precise with your solder. I am assuming you are talking about sterling silver or gold.
 

Brian Marshall

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I agree it can be done...


But you might wanna practice 3 or 4 times (or whatever it takes) until you feel you have mastered heat & fire scale control.

Also be aware that if you don't have practice/experience, the odds are pretty good that your solder will run out into the engraving cuts - unless you leave sufficient unengraved space around the bezel.


That is the reason bezels are usually in place before the engraving starts.


Brian


P.S. Don't even think about soldering a bezel down directly on top of freshly engraved cuts - as an afterthought, so to speak.

It will be a disaster, solder will run everywhere - following the direction of the cuts.

I have had to "repair" this kind of mess many many times. Usually from shops who hand their job envelopes off to inexperienced bench jewelers.

To "fix" it, you have to remove the bezel, re-engrave the area that was flooded with solder and install a brand new bezel in an entirely different way.
 
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rossm10

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Thanks so much guys!!!....I was intending to solder the bezel first onto bracelet, and then engrave, but I don't know how to do that?? In order to clear the bezel walls (1/8' to 3/16") It seems you would have to keep your graver at such a steep angle you couldn't really make nice bright cut groups?? I'm trying to attach a scan of a rough sketch ...If I'm successful....? maybe it will help explain what I'm talking about??...Again thanks so much for the help...It is really, really, appreciated!!!!
 

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monk

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fwiw: i have never used such a product-- but there are products available to prevent solder flow into unwanted places. usually available where soldering supplies are.
 

Brian Marshall

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Being able to control your heat, the amount of solder you apply AND firescale are all basic skills.

The various methods of "stopping" solder flow are tricky. Easier to learn the proper skills you need to avoid the situation from the get go...

Way too many people look for instant gratification. You won't find it in the metalsmithing or hand engraving worlds.


Brian
 
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Dave London

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I do not do bright cut but the scrolls would be easy, just cut from both directions. MTC
 

Haraga.com

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Do a didyoung. Engrave it then form it then soft solder the bezel. If you wanted to take it one step further you could put some black paint on it when you get it half engraved.
 

Jan Hendrik

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As a goldsmith with over 20 years experience in the trade I suggest the following:
1) Leave a small space between your engraved areas and the bezel (not less than 0,5mm).
2) you can use tippex correction fluid to cover areas of engraving and grooves where you want to prevent solder from flowing prior to fluxing. Let the tippex fluid air dry before applying flux. The tippex will easily come off when you ultrasonic clean after pickling. You can skip this step if you do step 1 properly and have good flame control.
4) Place your solder on the inside of the bezel to prevent the solder from damming up on the outside and running into your engraved areas, and heat the bracelet from the bottom drawing the solder pallions into the seam with your flame.
5) To prevent fire scale apply some extra fine boracic powder in an even thin coat to the surface of the metal before fluxing and soldering. It should be as fine as baby powder, granules don't work so good. You can mix the boracic powder with some methylated spirits 50/50. Apply with a soft artists paint brush and burn off the methylated spirits to leave a coating of boracic powder behind. The boracic coating prevents oxidization during soldering. The boracic coating can be applied over the tippex as well and will not cause any problems.
 

Mike D

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Rossm10,

I agree with Jan about the correction fluid. It's going to be your best insurance for keeping solder out of engraving. I use "White Out" correction fluid. It's tough, but it will break down faster if you heat too long or heat too high.

When I remove a banner on a belt buckle (surrounded by engraving) to replace it with a new one, I use a lot of white out and it seems like I have about 3-5 minutes before it starts to break down.

Try to use an "extra easy flow" silver solder, A 56% works well. It flows at a lower temp and quickly before the correction fluid breaks down. The lower temp solder will also help with minimizing the chance of the brightness being diminished in your engraving. You might have to do a but of rouge polishing after soldering, I don't know if you can go through this with zero soldering stains, there will be a little bit but nothing to ruin it.

Good luck!
-Mike D.
24yrs Silversmith
 
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Brian Marshall

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There are two kinds of correction fluid, gentlemen...

And it was never designed to be used as we are using it in the above two posts. (As a barrier to prevent solder flow)

Yes, I myself use it for that purpose. Occasionally. When the job calls for it. Keeping safety in mind.


One is water based. (Somewhat difficult to find in the USA)

The other releases a small amount of cyanide gas upon heating. (The commonly available one in the USA)

Were you aware of that? Which do you prefer? How close is your nose to the job? Do you solder under a vent hood? Does the student? Would it be wise to find out?



When a new metalsmith is asking, it's probably a good idea to begin the conversation with safety. There is no big hurry...

Then start adding the basic skills one by one. When those are mastered, you might begin to add in "tricks of the trade".

Hopefully starting with the SAFE ones first. Which in this case - a solder stop - messy as it is, would be something more along the line of yellow ochre or red rouge paste.

Something with a few thousand years of historical use to back it up, maybe? I am not a Luddite. It works. It's safe. You can eat it if you wish. Iron oxide...

AFTER that method is explored & mastered you move on up. Shortcuts that you do not have the experience for and do not understand - can damage your health or kill you.


I am a perfect example of what can happen if you don't pay very close attention to what you are doing...


B.
 
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Haraga.com

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Brian, admit it, the bull riding didn't exactly help your health at all.
 

Brian Marshall

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Leonard,

I was a team roper and rode a few broncs.

My one and only experience on a bull resulted in hairline fractures to both shinbones - not my headbone.

I jumped just as the bull got my legs and went ass over teakettle over his back. Saved by the clown from further damage...

After that I stayed with the horses. They do not like to stomp on things that squish (as bull do), and generally don't try to kill you for fun.
 
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Brian Marshall

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Ross,


First you need to put your location in your profile... we can't guess where you are from, and it can make a difference in the answers you get.


Then I would advise you to change your design a wee bit.


Do solder your bezel down first. (What are the dimensions of this piece and the stone? If the stone/bezel is large, bending the bracelet can become problematical.)

Do drill a hole for access to the back of the stone in case it gets stuck while fitting everything up. You'll wish you had one day - if you don't make it regular practice.


Move your engraving pattern back a little ways - away from the bezel.

Leave a uniform space between the bezel wall and your engraving. A few mm's or 1/8 of inch - depending on the overall size of this work and the stone.

You can leave it plain & polished, stipple, use liners crosswise to "frost", Florentine or otherwise texture the area between the engraving and the bezel AFTER you finish the ornamental engraving.


To get by without making a special set of gravers, you can "reverse" cut the bright cut right up close to the bezel area. Start wide and taper to narrow.

This is NOT easy to accomplish, but it can be done. Practice doing it on some scrap 'till you are comfortable with it.

You will have to make some cuts "out of order" and from the "wrong" directions. Good thing to learn for future jobs.


If you do much of this kind of work there are gravers you will have to make yourself that are designed to work over the top of "obstacles" such as this bezel.

For learning at your level, I wouldn't bother for just this one piece.

Making those gravers and sharpening them properly for the first time would take twice as long as making and engraving your entire piece the way I explained above.


Get some experience designing, fabricating and engraving at least a handful of pieces. Put 'em up for critique on the forum. Take your time, learn the basics and don't be in a hurry...


Brian
 
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Haraga.com

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Well Brian maybe you should have ran instead of jumped. Who in their mind would jump in front of a bull instead of running away?
 

Brian Marshall

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I lasted maybe 7 seconds - lost my hold, went over his neck and landed on my feet facing him.

Take my word for it, there was no time to run... so I jumped straight up.

Wasn't quite quick enough... wasn't all the way off the ground yet when he hit me...

But it did help get me airborne over his back. Otherwise, both legs would've snapped and I'd be walkin' funnier than I already do.


B.
 
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Jan Hendrik

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Jewellery manufacture is a hazardous job no matter how you look at it. Nearly all the chemicals we use are hazardous to your health. Polish dust, fluxes, fumes from solders, micro gas leaks, methylated spirits fumes, acid fumes etc. etc...... I would not worry about the micro amount of cyanide gas released from the white out fluid at all, except if you are going to use it on a daily basis. Rhodium plating solution releases a hell of a lot more cyanide gas when you do electro plating. If you want to live in a bubble, free from chemical hazards you should not choose goldsmith as a profession. It is a dirty, hazardous job by nature with a lot of procrastination involved :) This however is not an excuse to take unnecessary risks either. Just my 2 cents worth.
 

Brian Marshall

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Little late for me to be changin' now? Always wondered why the water runnin' down the shower drain was red...


Never plated anything with my nose over the beaker.

Did get cancer from the cadmium in the solders. (and "extra easy" low temp gold & silver solders are where you'll find it)

Lost partial use of my right arm from the surgery 12 years ago.

Still work at the bench with the arm in a sling to support it.


Mike D is using a LOT of White-Out taking off buckle banners. There are other much safer ways. I know because I have done my share.


Pay attention to what is in what you are using - or pay the price. Come and see what it looks like when you don't.


B.
 
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Haraga.com

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Brian I am calling BS on your story. If you would have lost your grip you would have went out the back of the bull.
 

Jan Hendrik

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Luckily most Cadmium solders have been replaced with solders containing Indium instead. Cadmium causes cancer and nerve damage. However Indium has not been tested extensively on its safety either. What a world we live in!
 

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