Against templates

Thierry Duguet

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
359
I have been reading several post about templates, I should confess that at first I did not understood what they were speaking about, then I discover that engravers were actually using premade drawing to engrave items.
I was surprise, one of the beauty and only justification of hand engraving is its uniqueness. I do not think that the purpose of engraving is too remove metal, its purpose is to create a unique piece which reflect the character of the individual which create it.
I went to school in Belgium, we never had a template to servilely follow, we were given engraved practice plates we were using as model, we had to do our own drawing, make our own mistakes or improvements. We were learning how to cut, how a given style was suppose to look. Even if we were inspire by the model the final result was ours from start to finish.
Why this posting might you ask? Because most of the ones using templates do not need them. They need to take a chance, learn the flow of things, put their own twist of this most ancient art form. You do not need a walking stick you can stand up strait on your own, you are as capable as creative as ones you imitate, no one is so good that his/her work cannot be improve on.
I have been a freelance engraver for sometime, I do not take print of what I have been engraving, I do not want to do the same thing twice, even if I inspire myself from my own work I do not want to reproduce it, I want to improve on it. What is interesting is what is yet to come, knowing my past mistakes does not give me the desire to reproduce them.
 
Last edited:

JJ Roberts

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
3,457
Location
Manassas, VA
The important thing to learn before even thinking about engraving is learning how to draw,I had a background in art before I started to attempt engraving.I spent two years on practice plates and then gun parts found at gun shows.Thierry went out of his way to learn engraving and it sure pad off.Keep up the good work Thierry. J.J.
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
Theirry: I agree, and here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

1.) Pre-made designs are good teaching tools, especially for those of us who teach short 5-day courses. I can teach someone the basics of sharpening and engraving in a few days, but I can’t teach them engraving basics AND drawing.

2.) Not every musician wants to write his/her own music. Most are content performing music composed by someone else. Not every engraver wants to be a working professional. Many are hobbyists and retired people who just want to make pretty things for their friends and grandkids. They don’t care where the designs come from. They just want to engrave.

3.) For those who want to pursue engraving as a profession, being able to draw is an absolute must. Transferring designs will only take you so far, and I constantly see engravers stuck in the transfer rut, especially with lettering. They take the path of least resistance and eventually it catches up with them.

So templates and transfers can be both a help and a hinderance. For they beginner they can help build confidence, but they’re not meant to be a way of life. Sadly, many become dependent on them instead of paying their dues with a pencil and sketch pad.
 

tdelewis

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
752
Location
Volant, PA 60 miles north of Pittsburgh
I do all my drawing and spend a lot of time practicing. However my current project, a single action, I decided to try a template for the first time. I found that it works for the main backbone scroll after some adjustments and saved some erasing. The leaves and tendrils I filled in with my own style. I have said on the form before, drawing scrolls is much like handwriting. It must be neat, smooth and flowing, following proper design and easily understood. Everyone will develop their own distinctive style.

Much of the work of todays masters is recognizable without knowing who the artist is.

The bottom line, practice, practice, practice
 

fegarex

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
2,061
Location
Ludington, MI
Sam,
You made some very good points. I have many students in the same situation. They do not want to become the next Nimschke, they just want to have a new hobby and have fun with it. Many are retired and they don't want to spend 30 years developing the art, they just want do some work on some guns to pass down to the family.
Now, if you are looking to get into the business you are going to figure out another option. The patterns can be a help in the beginning but nothing replaces lots and lots of drawing.
 

BrianPowley

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
1,805
Location
East Springfield, Ohio, United States
My business is diverse.
I have production work, (which using the templates makes sense), restoration work (which is easy and financially rewarding) and custom jobs.
Re-read Sam's #3 (above), think about it real hard and sharpen your pencil skills.
 

Thierry Duguet

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
359
Thank you all for your replies. Maybe because I do not see engraving as a hobby I fail to consider that it was so for other.
 

monk

Moderator
Staff member
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
10,857
Location
washington, pa
i only use templates with my pantograph for, shall we say "less than unique work". i trace a diamond drag design, and then hand engrave over the trace. how many times do i want to hand draw the usmc logo ?
i made a set of scroll templates with my laser, to be used as a drawing aid. in my opinion, they have the opposite effect. if i were to put a pencil in them now, i'd get dust balls on my pencil!!
 

Toad

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
278
Location
Vermilion, Ohio
Templates give a beginner confidence. There a great tool for practice. With music I learned from other musicians by playing there music. Through time my own style emerged.


Todd
 
Last edited:

GTJC460

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Messages
1,327
Location
Tullahoma TN
I fully agree with Brian Powley's statements. There's a huge difference in the types of work out there and the amout of effort expended on the job. When I say effort that means how much design planning and drawing go into the job.

If you plan on making a living by engraving you have to be a business man first.
 

Idaho Flint

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
327
Location
Idaho Falls, Idaho
Being a hobbyist, and one who is trying to hone their drawing skills, I find that using a template or copying someones work on a practice plate and cutting it really helps me become a more skilled drawer. I can learn more about a scroll, or style by cutting it, than I can by just looking at it. To me they have been a great help, and I thank everyone for posting you wonder work for me to drool over and practice on. It has help me more than I can say.

Thanks
Mike
 

Beathard

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
1,476
Location
Paige, TX
There are also different levels of using a template or transfer. On some inexpensive jobs that require a lot of speed I will do the transfer and cut the backbones. Then remove the transfer and freehand or draw my own leaves directly in the gun. No it does not make a museum piece. But a $500 budget doesn't buy a museum piece either. Templates or transfer or smoke pulls of old pieces or reused old designs off the computer are tools. You need to use the right tool for the job.
 

tdelewis

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
752
Location
Volant, PA 60 miles north of Pittsburgh
It seems that people are talking about two different ways of using designs. A template to me means Something like a draftsman would use. A piece of plastic with slots cut in it that you put your pencil in and lay out a line or shape. Most of this conversation seems to be about design transfers. To me these are two different things. How many of you have used a plastic template like those that GRS sells and what do you think of that process? I posted earlier that I have Used one for the first time on a current project and found that they were some help in laying out the main backbone. Other than that they didn't work well for me. Templates or transfers?
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,490
Location
Covington, Louisiana
Yes, technically templates and transfers are two different things, but to me they both take the drawing skill out of engraving and I tend to lump them together. Obviously a scroll backbone template still requires you to add your own fill which I guess is slightly better than having everything done for you. So I have a love-hate relationship with templates and transfers. I love the fact that they make a great teaching tool and help build confidence and are also great for hobbyists, but I hate to see engravers become slaves to them, trying every means possible to avoid drawing a design or developing the skill to draw a proper backbone.

Transfers and templates are like pain killers. They're good for temporary relief...just don't get to where you can't function without them.
 

Thierry Duguet

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
359
I fully agree with Brian Powley's statements. There's a huge difference in the types of work out there and the amout of effort expended on the job. When I say effort that means how much design planning and drawing go into the job.

If you plan on making a living by engraving you have to be a business man first.

Obviously if you are using a template the amount of effort expended in design planning and drawing is very limited or inexistent.
 

SamW

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
2,426
Location
Castle Valley, UT in the Red Rock country
My experience has been that the first few hours of a project involves the art side of engraving, that is, designing the project, and the next many, many hours are pure craftsmanship. For me an example would be about 4 to 8 hours designing and 200 to 400 hours (sometimes more) of craftsmanship.

Templates short-circuit the art part but do allow beginners an opportunity to work on the craftsmanship. One should however practice the art side along with the craftsmanship side in order to progress. Otherwise one will end up in a rut rather than in a groove!!

The art develops the uniqueness of the product and the craftsmanship the quality.
 

Lee

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
1,047
I have become acquainted with a very good painter and one of the best drawers I know. He does a lot of portrait commissions. The first half hour of studio time is spent honing his drawing skills. You might find his practice method interesting and useful. He draws on tracing paper- the more transparent the better. You might even try acetate. He works primarily with the human form and chooses a photo or drawing then tries to copy it as perfectly as he is able. He does not use calipers or any other measuring device forcing his eye and mind to be trained in seeing and evaluating relationships. When he is done he places the drawing over the picture to see how well he has done. It's challenging and an exercise I am going to start doing. He works with people but I don't see any reason why you couldn't enlarge scroll or ornaments and then draw them.

I like to draw and my approach to engraving is very similar to Theirrys. I also understand that for some it is a hobby and templates can have a place as has been well explained. Many of my students have a good day job that they enjoy and simply want something to do in the evenings and weekends that doesn't require them to deal with people or a computer screen.
 

Beathard

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
1,476
Location
Paige, TX
My experience has been that the first few hours of a project involves the art side of engraving, that is, designing the project... For me an example would be about 4 to 8 hours designing and 200 to 400 hours (sometimes more) of craftsmanship...
The art develops the uniqueness of the product and the craftsmanship the quality.

There are two types of engravings being discussed. For a 200 to 400 hour job the piece better be unique and highly artistic.

But for a 50% coverage 1911 with a $500 budget where the customer doesn't care about uniqueness? Templates and transfers have their place.
 
Top