Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
How often does a mechanic charge more than the value of the car he repair?
Help, please: Pricing your Work?
- Thread starter DAK4442
- Start date
How often does a mechanic charge more than the value of the car he repair?
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Rarely if ever..same as me I guess since some gems are worth x100's more than a setting fee.
There isn't an easy answer to pricing but you made a good point about enjoying what you do versus racing the clock..balance is for each individual to find.
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
"Does the mechanic ever charge more..." Absolutely-as do portrait artist, landscape artists scrimshaw artists. And I would hope first that gemsetterchris carries insurance for accidents and loss and that he charges the customer the premiums for that. I was once contract painter did lots of little normal house painting jobs and my insurance covered them, even overspray on vehicles if paint mist got on their car. I contracted to paint the 3 story stained glass windows of a Methodist church. Just the outside trim, some dividing trim and caulk both would and glass where required. Three person job, set up scaffolding, scrap the wood work, prime then paint, caulk the loose pains inside and out. My insurance company required a bond at replacement cost of the window should a disaster happen-scaffold falling into the window etc. It took me and my three man crew four days inside and five outside five. The bill was slightly over sixty thousand dollars most of which went to the insurance company, and special equipment rental. Lost a little money on the job as I had to move the pews myself and did not have it in the bid but it was just time.
Often the work we do an any job far out ways the cost of material and time and even name recognition. All art, engraving included, should out way the price of canvas and paint. I would not take possession of a stone that cost more than 100x the setting fee without client paying the costs of special insurance for the stone, then it is just another stone to set. Someone's old single shot 12 gauge from Sears that was used to save the life of his or her family is priceless and should deserve the same level of our artist skill as a $140,000 Holland and Holland used to kill a few quail. Many of the great masterpieces are painted on a board. Fred
Often the work we do an any job far out ways the cost of material and time and even name recognition. All art, engraving included, should out way the price of canvas and paint. I would not take possession of a stone that cost more than 100x the setting fee without client paying the costs of special insurance for the stone, then it is just another stone to set. Someone's old single shot 12 gauge from Sears that was used to save the life of his or her family is priceless and should deserve the same level of our artist skill as a $140,000 Holland and Holland used to kill a few quail. Many of the great masterpieces are painted on a board. Fred
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diandwill
Elite Cafe Member
It is never as cut and dried an answer as can be posted with just a few words.
The book for auto mechanics was devised because many mechanics would pad the clock, it became a problem and they took an average for each type of mechanic on each type of car.
Just like with some engravers being better than others, and costing more, there are some mechanics that are just better. They charge more...and get it. If you have ever had to have the carburators balanced and tuned in a multi carb engine you will understand.
An engraver on a Colt SAA can increase the value of the gun, or decrease it. If you want the value increased, better take it to a good engraver. It will cost more but will be worth it.
There just is no magic brush to paint everything and have it make sense. You (we) as engravers have to charge based on ability, speed and what it will take to survive. Some will make more, some less. It should be based on ability but often is based on perception.
As the only (seemingly) hand emgraver in my geographic area, I strive to do my best with every job. It isn't as good as Sam could do, but I try to show my clients that they have received the perceived value for the charge. Much of the time I have to make it up as I go.
I have been asked for a quote to engrave 4 names, matching a pre-existing font, on a silver plated punch bowl that is being used as a baptismal font. I wasn't supplied with the names...yet. The same lady has 2 Mercury dimes that she wants the back sides made into Victorian Love Tokens. Name and Date will be supplied, but otherwise I have artistic free reign. I have no real idea what to charge. I would like the work, but a $74 dollar job can become a $150 dollar job very quickly. I guess the answer is a series of quick sketches, to show different price options and let het choose from that. Any advise would be appreciated.
The book for auto mechanics was devised because many mechanics would pad the clock, it became a problem and they took an average for each type of mechanic on each type of car.
Just like with some engravers being better than others, and costing more, there are some mechanics that are just better. They charge more...and get it. If you have ever had to have the carburators balanced and tuned in a multi carb engine you will understand.
An engraver on a Colt SAA can increase the value of the gun, or decrease it. If you want the value increased, better take it to a good engraver. It will cost more but will be worth it.
There just is no magic brush to paint everything and have it make sense. You (we) as engravers have to charge based on ability, speed and what it will take to survive. Some will make more, some less. It should be based on ability but often is based on perception.
As the only (seemingly) hand emgraver in my geographic area, I strive to do my best with every job. It isn't as good as Sam could do, but I try to show my clients that they have received the perceived value for the charge. Much of the time I have to make it up as I go.
I have been asked for a quote to engrave 4 names, matching a pre-existing font, on a silver plated punch bowl that is being used as a baptismal font. I wasn't supplied with the names...yet. The same lady has 2 Mercury dimes that she wants the back sides made into Victorian Love Tokens. Name and Date will be supplied, but otherwise I have artistic free reign. I have no real idea what to charge. I would like the work, but a $74 dollar job can become a $150 dollar job very quickly. I guess the answer is a series of quick sketches, to show different price options and let het choose from that. Any advise would be appreciated.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Dan…..as for your initial post started all this. I think you are onto a good thing, cross fingers, touch wood 
It sounds to me like the lady you are dealing with is a great person to deal with she wants to have a good business relationship with you. If you are happy with $50 per hour then there’s nothing wrong with that. All relationships are built up over time. They thrive when you keep open, respectful, understanding and honest dialogue and both sides work at it. All relationships change as well. So when the time comes and you need to raise prices, do so well in advance and with full consultation with her. If there are any misunderstandings, tension or muck ups, then deal with them immediately and reasonably.
That way you both end up winning. You get what you want and so does she. That is what business is all about……………Nurture your business relationships as you would any other.
Pricing your work is a huge subject and there are many ways to go about it. Hourly rate, per square inch and Marcus’ approach of daily/half daily.
Essentially they are all the same and based on knowing exactly how much time it takes to do a job within a reasonable degree………..Because we are selling two things. Skill and time.
But…………. and this is the big one. Before you do any of that you need to know how much you need to live. It’s no use charging $50 an hour or whatever and you really need $70 per hour to live and pay the bills. If you don’t know what your outgoings are you are doomed from day one. And please aim high and not lower your sights to the minimum wage.
Under charging is a sure method to land you in the bankruptcy courts or deep financial do doos. And don’t forget that you have to deduct government/local taxes from what you charge. You don’t get to keep everything you earn. You also have overhead structure that has to be deducted plus depreciation/replacement of equipment used………don’t fool yourself. We all have overhead even working from home. Be it electricity, insurances etc etc.
Business relationships is also a mixture of several things. Good communication, punctuality, reliability, honesty and loyalty. Plus a whole lot more but they are the big ones. Loyalty is the nirvana as you want repeat work and that is where the others skills get you to. You also want word of mouth advertising and clients recommending you to others.
After the initial contact and trying to get as much possible information as I can, including a photo. (Note: if the potential client is so vague and cagey that they wont supply all the information I need I drop them immediately. If they can’t tell me the name or date or where they are from, it just means they are shopping for price and I can’t be bothered with that. I’m not the cheap or free guy)
I then give an estimate of the work. A price range based on previous experience. It ranges from low to high. If that is acceptable to them then they ship me the work and drawings are done. It is at that stage the customer gets a fixed quote from me. So the customer knows exactly what they are getting and how much. I never quote work till it’s on my bench and I can see every complexity of the job. It's fair to say that the way the client views the job and the way I view it are two different things. What they think is simple can sometimes be far from it.
Before cutting commences I get a 50% deposit and once the job is finished I send a photo and get the balance before shipping to the customer. There are a few exceptions to that as repeat customers that I have dealt with regularly get a credit line based on previous good experience with them.
For one off work I charge a premium as there is a lot of time spent e-mailing/phoning etc. If you are in a relationship with repeat customers I charge a bit less as they know my work and I know their expectations so there are generally no hassles, interruptions, haggling or figuring the job out.
Cheers
Andrew
It sounds to me like the lady you are dealing with is a great person to deal with she wants to have a good business relationship with you. If you are happy with $50 per hour then there’s nothing wrong with that. All relationships are built up over time. They thrive when you keep open, respectful, understanding and honest dialogue and both sides work at it. All relationships change as well. So when the time comes and you need to raise prices, do so well in advance and with full consultation with her. If there are any misunderstandings, tension or muck ups, then deal with them immediately and reasonably.
That way you both end up winning. You get what you want and so does she. That is what business is all about……………Nurture your business relationships as you would any other.
Pricing your work is a huge subject and there are many ways to go about it. Hourly rate, per square inch and Marcus’ approach of daily/half daily.
Essentially they are all the same and based on knowing exactly how much time it takes to do a job within a reasonable degree………..Because we are selling two things. Skill and time.
But…………. and this is the big one. Before you do any of that you need to know how much you need to live. It’s no use charging $50 an hour or whatever and you really need $70 per hour to live and pay the bills. If you don’t know what your outgoings are you are doomed from day one. And please aim high and not lower your sights to the minimum wage.
Under charging is a sure method to land you in the bankruptcy courts or deep financial do doos. And don’t forget that you have to deduct government/local taxes from what you charge. You don’t get to keep everything you earn. You also have overhead structure that has to be deducted plus depreciation/replacement of equipment used………don’t fool yourself. We all have overhead even working from home. Be it electricity, insurances etc etc.
Business relationships is also a mixture of several things. Good communication, punctuality, reliability, honesty and loyalty. Plus a whole lot more but they are the big ones. Loyalty is the nirvana as you want repeat work and that is where the others skills get you to. You also want word of mouth advertising and clients recommending you to others.
After the initial contact and trying to get as much possible information as I can, including a photo. (Note: if the potential client is so vague and cagey that they wont supply all the information I need I drop them immediately. If they can’t tell me the name or date or where they are from, it just means they are shopping for price and I can’t be bothered with that. I’m not the cheap or free guy)
I then give an estimate of the work. A price range based on previous experience. It ranges from low to high. If that is acceptable to them then they ship me the work and drawings are done. It is at that stage the customer gets a fixed quote from me. So the customer knows exactly what they are getting and how much. I never quote work till it’s on my bench and I can see every complexity of the job. It's fair to say that the way the client views the job and the way I view it are two different things. What they think is simple can sometimes be far from it.
Before cutting commences I get a 50% deposit and once the job is finished I send a photo and get the balance before shipping to the customer. There are a few exceptions to that as repeat customers that I have dealt with regularly get a credit line based on previous good experience with them.
For one off work I charge a premium as there is a lot of time spent e-mailing/phoning etc. If you are in a relationship with repeat customers I charge a bit less as they know my work and I know their expectations so there are generally no hassles, interruptions, haggling or figuring the job out.
Cheers
Andrew
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
50$ an hour and keyed the material to wholesale? Unless you live in a high rent district, I would say you did ok.
zzcutter
Elite Cafe Member
I think Andrew hit the nail on the head. To quote one of my Professors from college " Read it, Learn it, Live it "
KCSteve
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
And yet another excellent post from the esteemed Mr. Biggs! :clapping:
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If you can't triple what you believe your service or product is worth AND sell it then you're selling to the wrong people.
Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
Some of us are not good salesman and finding competent representative is very difficult fortunately clients are very inquisitive.
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
If only all the "right people" made a facebook group so we could find them easily.....
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hmmm... most of the "right people" with larger disposable incomes that I deal with will not have anything to do with as*book...
Neither will I ... though one of my apprentices wants to bring me "up to date".
Perhaps you can find enough "right people" younger than 30 that hang out 24/7 in social media?
Frankly, I haven't the time or the interest to look in that direction.
Brian
Neither will I ... though one of my apprentices wants to bring me "up to date".
Perhaps you can find enough "right people" younger than 30 that hang out 24/7 in social media?
Frankly, I haven't the time or the interest to look in that direction.
Brian
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Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Yep! Social media is an instant gratification marketplace .... the spontaneous buyer with an average of $200 seems to make up the largest percentage of the retail segment. It does however, perform well for those selling workshops, books and techniques to those looking to get into this or that so you would probably do well in the teaching area.
Everything eventually comes full circle and getting out to places where meeting customers works best. Having a website that is continuously updated draws in those actively seeking. The combination of those leads have always proven to be the most qualified.
I freely admit that I am one of those individuals. I am confused by having two pricing structures .... one for retail and one for service. Pushing a retail client back to perform a service at the lower service rate seems to penalize the client willing to pay a premium as well as the one the performing the service. A Lose-lose situation except for the one reselling the work.
Offer a product or service in a segment of the market that values it most, where others can not easily replicate it and you dictate price. It is trial and error and usually requiring a combination of skills beyond engraving (ie: fabrication and/or stone setting). IMO engravers are at an advantage because traditionally people pick up engraving secondary to a primary function and do not have the time to invest that which an engraver already has to take something over the top - that's what engraving does, takes stuff everyone is familiar with over the top and turn it into something they have never seen before. There's a huge market out there outside of the traditional collector avenues and it is essentially untouched.
TyG
Elite Cafe Member
I do not wholesale my work, I believe that I have a better understanding of the craft and what goes into my designs than someone just wanting to get a retail sale on my work. I understand that others may not be comfortable promoting or dealing there work out to the customers but it does not worry me. I will do work for other Saddlers and take in engraving work to embellush others work, this is at an agreed rate.
I do use social media to get my work out to the World, as a person living on one of the more remote countries of our world and in a society with a "make it plain" mentality, I have to show as many as I can to feed and house my family. I have found great success with FB, and 90% of my work is sold and sent overseas as a result. This in turn has given me the ability to value my work within the international pricing structure and made me known outside of Australia ( how well is debatable).
as they say, all is fair in love and war and I am yet to find someone that does not deserve some of my work.
Ty
I do use social media to get my work out to the World, as a person living on one of the more remote countries of our world and in a society with a "make it plain" mentality, I have to show as many as I can to feed and house my family. I have found great success with FB, and 90% of my work is sold and sent overseas as a result. This in turn has given me the ability to value my work within the international pricing structure and made me known outside of Australia ( how well is debatable).
as they say, all is fair in love and war and I am yet to find someone that does not deserve some of my work.
Ty
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK... I am willing to be convinced... if there is money in it
What is the largest sale (engraving or hand fabricated combination) anyone has made - that you would attribute ENTIRELY to as*book or other social media presence?
Answers from anyone will be much appreciated.
If it's an interesting enough figure, I may just put the apprentice in charge of that aspect. I've not got the time or inclination, but if you can convince me - we'll find a way.
We DO need to make some changes around here. Been gettin' stagnant. Might start there?
Though that laser welder is looking better & better every day.... and then there's that bigger press, and the remodeling of the shops, and, and, and....
Also considering an entirely new direction. 40+ years is a long time to be doing anything.
Brian
What is the largest sale (engraving or hand fabricated combination) anyone has made - that you would attribute ENTIRELY to as*book or other social media presence?
Answers from anyone will be much appreciated.
If it's an interesting enough figure, I may just put the apprentice in charge of that aspect. I've not got the time or inclination, but if you can convince me - we'll find a way.
We DO need to make some changes around here. Been gettin' stagnant. Might start there?
Though that laser welder is looking better & better every day.... and then there's that bigger press, and the remodeling of the shops, and, and, and....
Also considering an entirely new direction. 40+ years is a long time to be doing anything.
Brian
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bronc
Elite Cafe Member
Brian, I think I got on Facebook right at 4 years ago. I was just like you, said I'd sure as hell never be part of it. There was a young silversmith who was staying with me some and he coerced me into joining up. Took me all of a week to figure out it was a good deal. Number one, its free. And it's not just younger folks on there...I'm still amazed at how many older folks take part. I couldn't tell you exactly how many, but I've picked up a number of good bit and spur orders ( I call anything above $2000 a good order) there. But more than that, it's increased my name recognition in the spur world. And you don't have to spend all day on Fb, a few minutes a day is plenty if you are just using as marketing tool. But that being said, if I had to choose between being on Fb or owning a laser welder, I'd opt for the laser welder. The jeweler here in town, who is a good friend of mine, has had a one for several years. It's about the most amazing piece of equipment I've ever seen.
Stewart
Stewart
Stewart
Stewart
Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
I am strictly a freelance engraver, I do not have the opportunity to markup the price of material, as a good prostitute I sell only myself and my ability (lol, I will engrave long for you baby) but do not get bad diseases, it might be one of my problem. When one sell a finish product the client does not know what part of the cost is material and what part is labor, this lack of clarity might make it easier. It is like doing a gold inlay, it is geometrically more expensive than strait cutting because client imagine that the gold give additional value to the work when the price of the material is actually negligible compare to the cost of the labor.
To answer one of the question having a website was a great help, not only because of the client I may get but because of the time and money saved. I when from spending $20.000,00 a year on the road, printing and sending picture, phone expenses to $00,00 almost overnight. Of course the website did also make money, lets just say that I did pay for the website and the next hundred year hosting on the first year. Of course I do manage my own website, update it which cut on IT cost. If I was a retailer having a website would be my very first step, before a store front. With a good shopping cart and PayPal your only job is to post pictures and descriptions and ship the good, one has a world wide audience almost for free (hosting cost less than $10.00/month, domain name $12.00/year) never was it so cheap to do business with such a large audience. As for FB, since I am just a freelance, let just say that it is not my cup of tea, but I may try, as one say it is free so why not.
To answer one of the question having a website was a great help, not only because of the client I may get but because of the time and money saved. I when from spending $20.000,00 a year on the road, printing and sending picture, phone expenses to $00,00 almost overnight. Of course the website did also make money, lets just say that I did pay for the website and the next hundred year hosting on the first year. Of course I do manage my own website, update it which cut on IT cost. If I was a retailer having a website would be my very first step, before a store front. With a good shopping cart and PayPal your only job is to post pictures and descriptions and ship the good, one has a world wide audience almost for free (hosting cost less than $10.00/month, domain name $12.00/year) never was it so cheap to do business with such a large audience. As for FB, since I am just a freelance, let just say that it is not my cup of tea, but I may try, as one say it is free so why not.
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Stewart,
So if you've made some $2,000+ sales off the social media, can you tell me if you've had a year that totaled over $10,000 in sales that you are sure you would not have gotten had you not been on there?
As to cost... I firmly believe in TANSTAAFL (Robert Heinlein)
It may cost nothing in cash to get on there, BUT - it will probably cost me a new phone or pad. And the service to go with it. And the hours that an apprentice works at putting it together and maintaining it. (And the inevitable time I will probably get suckered into spending on it)
What I am trying to avoid, is needlessly complicating my life AND adding more expenses - unless I can be convinced that it is much more than justifiable.
I was perfectly happy with the 10 year old "dumb" phone for my previous purposes - which were simple phone calls made from the bike or car.
Everything comes at a price... I need to have a handle on what this may total up to?
I think I'd rather shoot myself before I catch myself looking at a phone every 7.5 minutes! Or being on call 24/7 and sleeping with the damn thing.
Brian
So if you've made some $2,000+ sales off the social media, can you tell me if you've had a year that totaled over $10,000 in sales that you are sure you would not have gotten had you not been on there?
As to cost... I firmly believe in TANSTAAFL (Robert Heinlein)
It may cost nothing in cash to get on there, BUT - it will probably cost me a new phone or pad. And the service to go with it. And the hours that an apprentice works at putting it together and maintaining it. (And the inevitable time I will probably get suckered into spending on it)
What I am trying to avoid, is needlessly complicating my life AND adding more expenses - unless I can be convinced that it is much more than justifiable.
I was perfectly happy with the 10 year old "dumb" phone for my previous purposes - which were simple phone calls made from the bike or car.
Everything comes at a price... I need to have a handle on what this may total up to?
I think I'd rather shoot myself before I catch myself looking at a phone every 7.5 minutes! Or being on call 24/7 and sleeping with the damn thing.
Brian
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Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
Personally I will make no effort to convince you, I do not like to share. You will save on your new phone and pad, a penny save is a penny earn, lol
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Thierry,
It's the FB I am asking about. Not a website. I know those work just fine. And you can leave 'em alone for weeks!
I'm just trying to make a last ditch effort to keep from having a phone welded to my hand for the rest of my life.
I've SEEN what happens to people once they swallow the social media pill. I see it every day. Just watched another kid crash into a tree on a bike while texting...
I do not want to be doomed to spending my private time in the throne room talking/texting to someone on the other side of the planet who has no idea what they want. (and if they did, couldn't afford it anyway)
Or being woken up at 3am by someone who input the wrong number or forgot about the time zone difference.
At a certain point in life, you have to say enough is enough. What I have seen of FB users is worse than heroin addiction. At least you get some sleep if you go down that road.
Brian
It's the FB I am asking about. Not a website. I know those work just fine. And you can leave 'em alone for weeks!
I'm just trying to make a last ditch effort to keep from having a phone welded to my hand for the rest of my life.
I've SEEN what happens to people once they swallow the social media pill. I see it every day. Just watched another kid crash into a tree on a bike while texting...
I do not want to be doomed to spending my private time in the throne room talking/texting to someone on the other side of the planet who has no idea what they want. (and if they did, couldn't afford it anyway)
Or being woken up at 3am by someone who input the wrong number or forgot about the time zone difference.
At a certain point in life, you have to say enough is enough. What I have seen of FB users is worse than heroin addiction. At least you get some sleep if you go down that road.
Brian
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