Want to start cheap

As Doc Mark explained, with the GRS and Enset systems there's a 'magic box' that puts out the pulsed air stream. The Lindsay system is a miracle of design where all the goodness is in the handpiece. GRS & Enset have adjustments the Lindsay doesn't. The Lindsday uses so little air you can run it off of a paintball CO2 bottle for several hours. Haven't had the joy of playing with an Enset but I'm confident in saying that each system works great.

But magic costs money. If you really want to start cheap Steve Lindsay has a cheap starter kit over on his site (start at http://www.airgraver.com and if you can't find it there drop into the forums). BUT you're going to have to put in a LOT of time. They're not kidding when they say years.

There have been two great advances in engraving starting around the 1970's. Everybody fixates on the air-assisted gravers and they are wonderful things. But IMHO it's the sharpening systems that have really made engraving so much easier to learn.

My quick summary of the situation (and I'm sure I'll be corrected where wrong):
Hand push, hammer & chisel, or air assist, even someone like me can have you making cuts in less than 10 minutes. The difference is how long it will take you to cut good lines and have control over them. Air-assist you should be getting into pretty good shape in a few days (that's why the 5 day classes are so popular). In my, very limited experience I've found it easier to get good lines playing around with H&C than push (except for shading lines and other very fine work). My clumsy paws have yet to master the fine line between pushing hard enough to drive the graver though the metal without it winging off to try to drive through my hand. H&C I only occasionally play with but even so I can tap a reasonably nice line. Not always where I want it or how I want it though.

Learning to sharpen by hand, on the other hand, is something I would recommend you avoid. Spend the money on a system. The GRS Dual angle is infinitely flexible. I feel (and others disagree) that it's best to have someone take 10-15 minutes showing you how to sharpen a graver. Others feel that the nice tutorials Sam has here (among others) are more than enough. The Lindsay template system is nearly idiot proof but you can only do the points you have templates for and making small changes to those points can get a bit arcane. Then again, so can figure out how to form a particular 'fancy' point using the Dual Angle.

Learn to sharpen a 90, a 120, a flat, and a round and you can do a lot of engraving. In fact, I think I'll go start a thread on what the minimum set of gravers is. Should be fun.

I have read the previous three pages and at no point has Excaliber_customs indicated what it is that he intends to engrave. If he intends to engrave guns, to any salable standard, he will need more tools, fixtures and a proper vise than he can imagine. On the other hand, if he intends to engrave Western silver and jewelry, and really wants to "start cheap", a few push gravers, sharpening stone and a leather pad, is all he needs. In fact for those who want to go really cheap, get a large concrete nail, temper it, then sharpen it on a smooth flat rock, then hot glue a fender washer (as a practice plate) to a five pound rock with a rounded and smooth bottom, then find a small rock with a flat side that you can hold in your hand, and presto you are ready to engrave. This is not a joke, I've tried it because there are so many people who come onto the engraving forums and want to learn engraving without investing any $ in the tools.

The other thing that nobody mentioned is that after you have the tools to engrave you will need designs to cut. It is the art aspect of hand engraving that confounds the large majority of those who decide to dabble in engraving on a whim.

Roger Bleile said:

It is the art aspect of hand engraving that confounds the large majority of those decide to dabble in engraving on a whim.

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That's the quote of the year. Thank you, Roger.

It's not that I'm not willing to shell the money out I just don't want to drop 3 grand to find out its something I'm not in to I realize it will take time designs shouldn't be a problem I've been tattooing for 11 years and I intend on engraving nickels, tattoo machines and knifes

take a class at grs, the best you can do before you buy anything then. 3 grand at least for me was to warm up....hahah but I like pron lots and lots of pron

Saludos,

Carlos

Ya there class is $800 bucks I think I would rather spend that on tools instead other wise Im spending 800 and coming home and still have no tools lol

Not saying I wouldn't benefit from the class I'm sure I would learn a tremendous amount

You can start out with no/poor equipment and accept a very steep and perhaps insurmountable learning curve, or start out with better equipment and quickly find whether you have the temperament and "sticktoitiveness" to succeed. The important part is to take action, any action.

I recommend the equipment route - you can resell it quickly and it will retain much of its original value if you get bored. Less financial risk with a rock and a nail, but you'll never get the time back. Either way is a risk.

As pointed out above by Roger Bleile, an alternative would be to work hard on art skills. Just takes a couple of pencils, paper and the internet. I was stunned to learn drawing wasn't just a "talent", but a skill that could be learned. My experience is that every hour spent drawing almost immediately translates into improved engraving skills. It's definitely worth it.

The hard part of it is to simply accept that it will cost a significant combination of money and time. There's no way around it, no matter how you attack it.

Hi I´m a beginner without an airgraver and do drawing and a little hammer and chissel work since i can get an classic
I think you are a very lucky guy Grs Centre is only one an a half hour away if i would take a class there i have to pay the flight half around the world But there are other opinions to take classes in Europe.
But for tools the taxes and shipping are very heavy. shipping only for the lindsay is about 130 $ and taxes something about 400 $ thats 530$ for nearly nothing
hold this in mind and take a class for the money you safe by living where you do

Excaliber_customs said:

Ya there class is $800 bucks I think I would rather spend that on tools instead other wise Im spending 800 and coming home and still have no tools lol

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I would advise taking a class and getting to know the tools before you jump into this as it's easy to make very expensive mistakes buying tools before you know what you're doing. That's the best advice I can give you. Of course I understand wanting to get started now and there are no classes at GRS until 2015.

You can certainly learn with hammer & chisel and it won't get much cheaper than that, although the learning curve is a bit steeper. That will get you going until you can budget for a class and pneumatic equipment, should you choose to go that route.

A GraverSmith and 901 handpiece, Dual Angle sharpening fixture w/tool post, a whetstone, a couple of 3/32" square gravers and an engraving vise will get you in the pneumatic game about as cheaply as possible, and GRS is down the road from you.

Great advice has been given, from all and some are Master Engravers, I would listen but you do what you have to do.

Good luck

Saludos,

Carlos

I am in this for a hobby, I am retired and have no intention of working again for a living. No doubt a class would be helpful, but I am not close to a class location, I also do not want to sit in a class for a week because very few places have the proper handicap facilities that I require. It may take me a few years to achieve what I want to achieve, and I may never be as good as I could be without a class, but it is a hobby, so I don't care.

Your tattoo experience should more than cover the basic art design work since tattoos are works of art. The tattoos may not cover the classic scrolls or acanthus designs that some think are the only way engraving is done. I am sure you will be able to "fly solo" with your art ability and create your own designs based on tattoos. They may not be traditional engraving designs, but they will be your design, and that is what counts.

There are books on engraving, Meeks "Art of Engraving" is a good start, not much on there about powered assisted engraving, but engraving had been done without power for centuries before powered engraving became the modern standard. There are other books and videos that are out there that will you learn some of the basics. This can give you the opportunity to at least try a little engraving and help you decide what options you should try in the future.

The classifieds have had numerous items for sale by past beginners that spent their money and hen decided they wanted to go in another direction. You can go that method, and sell the tools later and recoup a good portion of your cost. With classes, you really need to know if you are really committed before you sign up, I have never seen anyone sell their class and recoup any money.

In short, do all of your homework first, only you can decide which road you want to travel.

When one considers that learning to draw a proper scroll/design is the most important part of engraving, the money spent on basic GRS classes is a wise investement.
I speak from experience. I learned to use the tools competently 15 years ago but I only learned to draw a proper scroll/ design a couple years ago.
Here is a typical sequence of events in the life of a new engraver.
1. Look at beautifully engraved guns/knives and decide because you are a pretty good artist decide to learn to engrave.
2. Purchase the tools necessary for the job.
3. Immediately start cutting only to realize the graver doesn't do what you think it should.
4. You learn to sharpen the tools.
5. After a week you cut some really clean lines and decide this was easier than you thought it would be.
6. You lay a design on a practice plate and when it's finished your wife/ friends/ business associates tell you "it's beautiful, you should engrave my gun!"
7. You know you are not ready for a gun so you engrave a knife instead. Your buddy says it's fantastic so you give it to him.
8. You engrave a few more and they are better each time so you sell them.
9. Repeat step 8.
10. You realize the whole time you've been cutting you had no idea what a proper scroll should look like.
11. You learn to draw a scroll and add some leaves and lay it all on a knife and decide, "now this is what engraving should look like"
12. Sell 2 more knives for a bit more money since the work is getting better all the time.
13. repeat step 12.
14. Suddenly realize that a proper scroll has a spine, not just a single line with leaves attached, and that you had no clue what a spine was.
15. You stop engraving for a bit to see what else you didn't know.
16. Come to the realization that there are now ten knives out there with your name on them that are utter rubbish and you can never get them back.
17. You spend the next year questioning everything you thought you knew and decide to step back and study/ seek advice.
18. You spend another year drawing and cutting 50 pounds of practice plates until what you cut looks like what you see in the books.
19. You finally cut a knife/gun that is accepted by other engravers.
20. Repeat step 17.
Use the forum and take the advice of those who have been there. And while I wrote this with tongue planted firmly in cheek, I think that many of us have either been through some or all of the above at some point and sometimes it's worse. Switch a knife with a Colt 1911 around step 9 and you could wind up regretting it for life. I count myself very lucky I don't have a Colt floating around out there.
Take it slow and enjoy the journey.
And now I'm going back to step 17.
Layne

Southern Custom said:

When one considers that learning to draw a proper scroll/design is the most important part of engraving, the money spent on basic GRS classes is a wise investement.
I speak from experience..... <snip>
2. Purchase the tools necessary for the job.
3. Immediately start cutting only to realize the graver doesn't do what you think it should.
4. You learn to sharpen the tools.
5. After a week you cut some really clean lines and decide this was easier than you thought it would be.
6. You lay a design on a practice plate and when it's finished your wife/ friends/ business associates tell you "it's beautiful, you should engrave my gun!"
<snip>
Layne

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hahahahah I seem to be in an eternal loop between 2 and 6, with an emphasis on 2!!!! Fortunately, I don't see anyone actually spending money for my scratchings so I don't have to worry about poorly done gotchagoblins "out there"... Everything I do goes to a very tolerant family with the instruction "If you don't like it, drop it in the burn barrel on the way out and I'll just melt it into something else"!

All kidding aside, nothing beats practice based on learning from good, professional formal training, IMHO.

Good advices, thanks

Sam's new thread with the Hammer & Chisel video shows a great example of how you can engrave very well quite cheaply. He's just using a hammer, a square graver, a holder, a couple of bits for hand sharpening, and a basic vise. *

*Ok, and a stereo microscope but that's not essential to the engraving itself.

What it doesn't show (explicitly) is the years it took him to build up the skills to work that smoothly.

But there you go. Probably less than $200 worth of equipment and a lot of patience and you can produce great work.

KCSteve said:

Sam's new thread with the Hammer & Chisel video shows a great example of how you can engrave very well quite cheaply. He's just using a hammer, a square graver, a holder, a couple of bits for hand sharpening, and a basic vise. *

*Ok, and a stereo microscope but that's not essential to the engraving itself.

What it doesn't show (explicitly) is the years it took him to build up the skills to work that smoothly.

But there you go. Probably less than $200 worth of equipment and a lot of patience and you can produce great work.

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Most of the "experts" seem to think you also have to take a class before you start, better add in another $500 to $800 for a week of classes.

Yup, "we" probably tend to think that way. And here's why:


I took no classes or workshops for the first 15 years...

There were none. (At least none that I knew of)


Knowing what I know now, would I have figured out a way to take some had they been available? (1969 to 2014 = 45 years)

DEFINITELY!


I've taken classes EVERY year since the late '80s. (1986 was spent in hospitals)

Not always in engraving, because I also do all kinds of metalsmithing and stonesetting too.

I intend to keep doing this as long as I can work.


I buy books. Every month, sometimes every week. I have a huge library by now and I USE it!

I buy and watch all the videos, I search youtube, I privately email the people who know or have done what I want to do.

Constantly.


Learning never ends, by whatever means available. Nowadays you have a HUGE advantage in the variety of learning methods!

I often learn the most from simply watching my own students and apprentices learn!


So, yeah... find and take hands on classes or workshops or even Internet classes. Do whatever it takes. You won't regret it if you are serious.

You will save yourself more time and money than you can believe possible!

Just by buying the correct tools to begin with - you can save more than the cost of a Basic class where you can try them all out personally, side by side.


Brian


And, you just may find that hand engraving is not for you - (there is nothing wrong with that) which can save you wasting more time and money.

Brian said it better. The consensus is strong that the very best money you can spend at the start is a class.

OK, I'm a little late chiming in on this thread, but I probably started off with one of the most inexpensive engraving setups out there. I took two drill bits and inserted them into corks and wrapped the cork with duct tape. I then ground a flat and a round graver out of the bit on a bench grinder and sharpened them on a wet stone. I hot glued a nickel to a piece of plywood and started cutting. I cut my first half dozen or so hobo nickels this way. Yadda, yadda, yadda, now I make my own gravers and chisels out of HSS lathe bits from Wholesale Tools out of Warren, Michigan. I buy 4x1/8 inch bits for gravers and 8x1/4 bits for chisels. Hobby Lobby sells wooden balls that are the right size for a graver handle for around 3 bucks a dozen. A small ball peen hammer for me works as well as my chasing hammer at 1/4 the price. I did buy optivisors as I'm getting old. For a coin vise I bought a used lathe chuck and milled it to hold a nickel and a dollar, but you can get a better holder from Steve Lindsay. Let see, the optivisors were about $40, the lathe chuck was $60, a dozen chisels and a dozen gravers and a hammer were well under $80. I am nowhere near the best, but I still manage to sell some hobo nickels and cut a few dies for coins and medals. finally, if you think these tools won't do for professional work, I made these tools on the advisement of Master Engraver Steve Adams, who uses the same tools.