Question: Having trouble with gravers

jzknives

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Jun 30, 2013
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Well Im having some trouble with gravers.

The main problem i am having is what geometry is right for the correct use. For example I have lindsay templates , but sam alfano in his hand push graving video says to make something completely different.

What are the different geometries for different methods of engraving? For example hammer and chisel , and hand push (no machine)

I layed out a nice copper bracelet and was excited to get started after practicing on a copper plate , and then on the first spine the graver slipped ruining the whole piece.

Its frustrating as hell.

And is there a solid way to make your own gravers from online metal stock? I think I ordered some W1 stock but it doesnt seem to hold an edge beyond maybe a quarter of an inch.
 

Brian Marshall

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The truth be known, at the very beginning - whose exact geometry, and which of those geometries you choose is not all that important.

As long as you pick one that's kinda generally useful! Anywhere from 90 to 115 would be my recommendation. 120 seems to be a little wide for a beginner.


Don't try to begin with a 70 degree or 135 degree "V" geometry. Those are specialty gravers.



If it was easy, then everyone would be doing it. There are a certain amount of "dues" to pay. Just think of the frustration as a partial payment... :)

To become really skilled at this - requires an inordinate amount of patience on top of the "dues"...


What exactly did you DO with the W1 stock? Are you aware that it has to be hardened and tempered? You cannot use it as it is supplied.



Brian


If you do not make mistakes you will not learn. There is no substitute.

You have to accept the mistakes, dissect them very carefully - and you should have a slightly better outcome with each practice.
 
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jzknives

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If it was easy, then everyone would be doing it. There are a certain amount of "dues" to pay.

To become really skilled at this - requires an inordinate amount of patience on top of the "dues"...


If you do not make mistakes you will not learn. There is no substitute.

You have to accept the mistakes, dissect them very carefully and you should have a better outcome with each practice.

what exactly is the point of this post considering I admitted I made a mistake and am having trouble?
 

jzknives

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The truth be known, at the very beginning - whose exact geometry, and which of those geometries you choose is not all that important.

As long as you pick one that's kinda generally useful! Anywhere from 95 to 115 would be my recommendation. 120 seems to be a little wide for a beginner.


Don't try to learn with a 70 degree or 135 degree "V" geometry. Those are specialty gravers.



If it was easy, then everyone would be doing it. There are a certain amount of "dues" to pay. Just think of the frustration as a partial payment... :)

To become really skilled at this - requires an inordinate amount of patience on top of the "dues"...


What exactly did you DO with the W1 stock? Are you aware that it has to be hardened and tempered? You cannot use it as it is supplied.



Brian


If you do not make mistakes you will not learn. There is no substitute.

You have to accept the mistakes, dissect them very carefully - and you should have a slightly better outcome with each practice.
1. The W1 stock was heated with a torch to bright red/cherry and then quenched quickly in room temperature brine. Those didnt seem to come out right so I then switched to oil and while they were BETTER they were still not usable.

2.What i meant by geometry was in this video sam posted on youtube. It seems that different tasks (hand push) need a different geometry (The part im talking about is at 2 minutes 10 seconds) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhKSjzwdsdA
 

jzknives

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From what you described, it looks like you did not temper after hardening... ??


Best to let Sam step in here...


Brian
You are supposed to temper them? that lowers the hardness though.

Wouldnt keeping them at their highest hardness be the best way to do it? Because right now the tips are not BREAKING off , they are just dulling and the tip gets rounded off. Completely different from my carbide gravers
 

Brian Marshall

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Gotta go run some errands. Someone else will step in here for sure in a few minutes.


(And probably tell you that everything I said is either wrong - or there's this EXCEPTION, and you shoud really do whatever instead...)


All part of the learning process. Figuring out who to listen to :)


B.
 

Terrezar

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First, there are no problems with using the geometries used with a handpice for palmpush. I do that all the time. There are a few kinds of gravers that is generaly used only with palm push, but they will not eliminate your problem. Not at all.

There is one thing, thoug. the Lindsay templates is not good for palm push. They give a paralell heel (witch sucks for palm push), and they give a fixed heel angle. I would get a dual angle fixture, and then start to play around with different hels angles. A couple of deegres can make all the difference.

I too have trided hardening my own gravers, but if you are a beginner, do not do this. It is difficult, and it only makes the task more of a pain. Use the exstra 5 $ and get some propper gravers. It will save you a lot of time.
 

KCSteve

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Learning to properly harden a bit of key stock takes a lot of practice. I'm still only about 50/50 on it so when I'm making an 'important' new graver (one I really need to work) I use the good blanks. I keep trying with the W1 blanks because eventually I will get the hang of it, if I keep practicing.

You said the graver slipped off the bracelet - did you form it before engraving? Engraving on a curved surface is very different than engraving on a flat. I do my bracelets flat and then form them with the GRS former after I'm done. Just make sure you cover the bracelet with tape before forming and make SURE you mark which side is the face.

If you've already formed your bracelet you might want to pause on it and do some curved material practice. Get some copper pipe of different sizes and cut off rings to practice on. 1" and smaller makes good 'rings'. Larger sizes let you practice working on various curves.

And yes, mistakes will happen. They happen in pretty much everything when you're starting out but with engraving they're fairly permanent.
 

Brian Marshall

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Steve,


"Key stock" that I have seen during my lifetime doesn't contain enough carbon to harden much. I suppose you could case harden, but that is thin.


I disagree about the slips and mistakes. They are not permanent. Your level of skill comes into play here.

I've made some doozies over the years. Never had to eat a job over a graver slip yet. (at least not on an engraving job - yes, I have broken some stones and paid for 'em)


Brian
 

jzknives

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Learning to properly harden a bit of key stock takes a lot of practice. I'm still only about 50/50 on it so when I'm making an 'important' new graver (one I really need to work) I use the good blanks. I keep trying with the W1 blanks because eventually I will get the hang of it, if I keep practicing.

You said the graver slipped off the bracelet - did you form it before engraving? Engraving on a curved surface is very different than engraving on a flat. I do my bracelets flat and then form them with the GRS former after I'm done. Just make sure you cover the bracelet with tape before forming and make SURE you mark which side is the face.

If you've already formed your bracelet you might want to pause on it and do some curved material practice. Get some copper pipe of different sizes and cut off rings to practice on. 1" and smaller makes good 'rings'. Larger sizes let you practice working on various curves.

And yes, mistakes will happen. They happen in pretty much everything when you're starting out but with engraving they're fairly permanent.
no the piece was flat. it just slipped out. which doesnt make much sense because i had done quite a few practice plates on copper right before switching to the bracelet and noticed that the bracelet copper was not reacting the same as the practice plate copper. Much harder it seemed.
 

Sam

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At 2:28 I show the version with extended heel. In a nutshell, short heel gravers are great for handpiece and hammer & chisel work, but are difficult to control on longer cuts. Longer heels produce heel drag but with much better control. For an even easier hand-push graver, try this modified onglette style (speitzer) in this video. When you get it right, it glides beautifully through the metal. Sadly, it can't be dialed-in with a fixture or template and must be hand shaped. But it's a sweeeet graver for pushing. E.C. Prudhomme had many gravers similar to this one, and 99% of what he did on a daily basis was done with hand gravers.

[video=youtube;8Zv2bbbEGPE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zv2bbbEGPE[/video]
 

dlilazteca

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Was that your first slip they will be very common at the beginning you might also learn to use a burnisher and try to see if you can erase and sand some mistakes, always an opportunity to learn.

Also a perfect time to incorporate a scratch into your design


Also don't forget about the fingernail test, to test your gravers to see how sharp they are.

At times you will spend more time sharpening then cutting


Saludos,

Carlos
 
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Beladran

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My go to graver for most of what I do is my 120 made on the grs 120 easy graver. Then I have the Lindsay 115 in second place, then regular old 90 in 3rd.
 

atexascowboy2011

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When you quench at non magnetic (cherry in low light) the steel is chrystalized and if dropped at this stage it will break due to the reorganization (tightening of the molecules).
At this point take a piece of 400 SP and clean the graver to down to clean steel.
Starting about 1/2" back from the tip , SLOWLY, bring the steel to a straw (yellowish brown) color letting the color ease to the tip and quench in water again.
As Brian stated, the tempering relaxes the molecules, creating a useful tool.

And as also stated, there is no fairy Godmother who can wave her magic wand to keep you from making mistakes .
Paying your dues is a catchphrase for learning by trial and error.
 

mitch

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JZ-

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here: Put down the W1 stock and quit messing around trying to make your own gravers. Sharpening & using a pre-made, 'store bought' graver is tricky enough without that extra hassle. They're cheap and you don't have to guess if they're tempered correctly (usually).

My advice would be to get some 3/32" square graver stock- Momax, Glensteel, etc.- put a 40-45 degree face on it and 15 degree heel on the bottom faces, then use it until you have enough experience to recognize when you need something different. The learning curve in this art/craft is steep enough without imposing extra hurdles on yourself.
 

jzknives

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When you quench at non magnetic (cherry in low light) the steel is chrystalized and if dropped at this stage it will break due to the reorganization (tightening of the molecules).
At this point take a piece of 400 SP and clean the graver to down to clean steel.
Starting about 1/2" back from the tip , SLOWLY, bring the steel to a straw (yellowish brown) color letting the color ease to the tip and quench in water again.
As Brian stated, the tempering relaxes the molecules, creating a useful tool.

And as also stated, there is no fairy Godmother who can wave her magic wand to keep you from making mistakes .
Paying your dues is a catchphrase for learning by trial and error.
hmm. Thanks for the info on this. All of my gravers we're never tempered. Thanks so much.

I am a blacksmith so I am pretty good at heat treating , so this is the more economical thing for me to do.

One last question though.

Is w1 steel the best stck to use? Is o1 better? What is High speed steel the graver companies use?
 

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