Question: Having trouble with gravers

Brian Marshall

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I use O1 for it's simplicity and cost. (yeah, I know it's only pennies. Scotch on my dads side)

Not everyone has oil handy, water is everywhere. No smoke, no flames...

Heat treating high speed steel requires VERY accurate temperature control with an inert atmosphere - more expensive than the average shop is gonna be able to afford.


I was an ornamental blacksmith and horseshoer in one of my earlier incarnations.

Made damascus blades back when you could not GIVE the stuff away... now look around!

Made everything from driveway entry gates to furniture and kitchen hardware...


I still have the coke fueled forge from my days as a farrier. Don't think anyone uses them anymore? Maybe at Renaissance Faires?


I did NOT consider myself an expert at heat treating back then. I used a heat treating oven for the bigger stuff - WITH A TEMP GAUGE.

While I have probably done over a thousand gravers (my own and demos) - I still "miss" hitting the exact temper every once in a while.



Brian
 
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atexascowboy2011

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Being a smith also, I am also constantly looking for better steel for my punches, L7 my latest, but I have my workhorses made by others who have spent years, researching, networking and experimenting before achieving today's perfection.
 

jzknives

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So would you want an impact rated steel like the S series?

Or abrasion resistant?

steel is a subject onto itself. What action in particular makes a graver degrade?
 

Southern Custom

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This discussion has been had many times on the forum. While it might seem more economical, it is far more efficient to purchase a few decent gravers and get down to the meat of it and that is learning to engrave. Engraving is a monumental task enough even without learning to harden, temper and sharpen properly. When it comes to properly hardening gravers, it's a whole different animal than other tools and knives.
Have fun and you'll find the answer to just about any question you could ask here. Though, knowing the right questions to ask is important as well.
Layne
 

Dave London

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JZ
Go back to post #19 by Mitch, and read carefully . Please take this as constructive critic .
 

Beathard

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First you need to understand that there are a lot of geometries. You need 1 or 2. Not all of them.

Second if you are using the templates from Lindsey use them. The fixtures from GRS that Sam uses are different. Pick one or the other to start. It will be less confusing. You can always expand later when you have graver control and know why you are changing the angles.

Third, slips are common. Learn to fix them. A piece is rarely ruined. On your bracelet, use a burnisher across the mistaken cut. The burnisher will close the cut. You can the sand and polish the cut. The mistake will pretty much disappear.

A list of supplies I use including cheap stock to make gravers is at http://gunengraving.org/links.html
 
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Weldon47

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Think of this (engraving) as a big pie (whatever your favorite pie is).
You sir are trying to eat the whole pie at once....don't: take a step back & Try it a slice at a time!

Pick a geometry (for example, try the Lindsay 116), buy some blanks from Centennial Carbide (courtesy of our friend Carlos here), grind some points (yes, you'll need diamond sharpening equipment) and then practice with this until you're comfortable using it. Afterward (when you've developed your confidence and understanding by practicing) then start learning something new (eat another slice of the pie)!

Trying to learn everything about engraving at once is like eating a whole pie at one sitting....it's liable to make you sick! Relax, take your time & enjoy the ride, you'll get there!!

Just my two cents worth,
Weldon
 

dlilazteca

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Weldon,

I really like how you explained it, pie, easy to understand.

Glad you like the graver blanks from Centennial carbide at 1.41 each you can't beat the price, I've been using those exclusively on all types of steels and they've held up great. I know several engravers that either have ordered them or are now using them, if you have a look at Gerrys new short documentary you can see them being used there, and he's working on a stainless steel Colt anaconda you know those are hard.

Here is a short video and how I sharpen them on the lindsay setup. The only thing I would change is I would not quench it in water I would let it air cool.

Focus on the basics, Strait lines, backbones in both directions, at 1.41 a piece you done have to worry about making your own tools right now.

Watch "Poor mans: blank gravers and power hone and use of" on YouTube
Poor mans: blank gravers and power hone and use of: https://youtu.be/BnAoV7l_jqM

Saludos,

Carlos
 
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Sam

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I would like to reiterate that heels for pneumatic handpieces and hammer & chisel work are not as easy to control as heels shaped for hand-push work unless the cuts are very light, short shading cuts. There's no way I could ever hand-push a scroll design outline with my regular short heeled graver that I use in my handpiece. If you are hand pushing then I would encourage you to replicate the graver I used in the video I posted and you might see a huge difference in control.

As for slips...they are a way of life. Hand pushing has a very steep learning curve. Don't be afraid to grab a chasing hammer and tap tap tap that graver through the metal.

I should also add that Lynton McKenzie would sometimes start a line by hand pushing, stop mid-cut, and the resume the cut with hammer & chisel. He knew when he was reaching the limits of control with his hand graver.
 

jzknives

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Hey sam , watching that video I noticed how the metal really isnt giving you much trouble as far as resistance goes. are you pushing very hard into the cut? or is it just years of experience? Also , the heel drag , can that be fixed after engraving? like with a cleanup tool? I really like the look of bright cut.

Also when is the next time you are going to be doing classes at GRS for basic engraving? (do you do the basic course)? Because I was thinking about heading down there this fall/winter and want to make sure you might be doing a class.
 

Sam

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Hey sam , watching that video I noticed how the metal really isnt giving you much trouble as far as resistance goes. are you pushing very hard into the cut? or is it just years of experience? Also , the heel drag , can that be fixed after engraving? like with a cleanup tool? I really like the look of bright cut.

Also when is the next time you are going to be doing classes at GRS for basic engraving? (do you do the basic course)? Because I was thinking about heading down there this fall/winter and want to make sure you might be doing a class.

There's not much resistance as it's copper, and I'm turning the vise into the graver more than actually pushing the graver.

The heel drag looks worse than it really is. It cleans off easily with some 4000 grit paper. It seems I can't have it both ways (easy cut with no heel drag) unless I use my handpiece and different graver geometry.

The 2015 GRS schedule will be posted sometime this fall. At this time I don't know the dates for 2015 basic classes.
 

leo

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You think your having trouble I would show you something I practice with the 116 v from lindsay if you want a stronger point for hand pushing get the speitzer point template he has them if your not investing in a pneumatic piece anytime soon when you see the pics think of this I just started doing this just like you and count the slips don't worry about the shading I know is not like Sam and the scrolls are free hand drawn jeje thank you for the comments I know some of you had seen the boat r image.jpg image.jpg
 

John P. Anderson

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Learning to engrave looks simple but it isn't. It's a complex motor skill that takes hours and hours of study and practice to master. I liken it to downhill skiing or motocross. Your not going to become an expert till you cut a lot of miles and fall down a bunch. Slips are part of learning till you learn to properly "ride" and tune the tip of the tool. Practice.

A few tips for what it's worth. I mostly push and wiggle grave. 90 degree V or narrower tool, flats, onglette . I hand sharpen using a couple small blocks I set on the edge of the stone to provide an angle reference. The primary block has a 45 degree angle that provides a eyeball reference for the face on all my gravers. It's also my reference for the sides on a 90 degree tool. The others is a knife angle guide that came with a stone and it's 23 degree that I use for my narrow V tool. I use the narrow V for much of my work even though it's fragile. A 90 degree V is great all around push tool and all you need to start.

I like my flats and have them in various widths. They are easy to make, hand sharpen easily with just a 45 degree face reference and each corner doubles in a pinch as a 90 degree V tool.

If your work and holding fixture have any freeplay that causes slips.

No heel you dig in and to much you slip. With experience you'll use a different heel depending on what your doing. I like lots of heel on my flat for smoothing and cleaning up background. For lettering a short heel. Other times I like lots of "bite" in my tool and will use little or no heel.

Heat treating, if your tips aren't breaking without tempering you probably didn't reach the transition temp when you hardened. Try a bit more heat before you quench. It should skate on file if it hardened. I temper to a straw color.

Give it time, be bullheaded. There's a lot to learn and for me that's what makes it great hobby.

John
 

jzknives

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Does the centenial carbide stock need to be heat treated or is it like the carbide stuff from grs that doesn't get effected by heat?
 

dlilazteca

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no heating, just shape and cut like the video,have you seen the video?

That's the simplicity of this, don't over think it, just watch the video and follow along, fir the lindsay template, for grs insert into QCC and sharpen like you would any other graver.

Saludos,

Carlos
 
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