Review for the GRS Scroll design kit

Hey guys long time no see.

I have purchased the "GRS scroll design kit" http://www.grstools.com/patterns-transfers-and-more/001-713.html from GRS after being disappointed with the "scrollmaster" template system http://www.grstools.com/patterns-transfers-and-more/022-196.html i bought previously from GRS.

This GRS scroll design kit is FAR superior to the other kit.

I failed to find any decent information on this kit ANYWHERE on the internet so I decided to create this review for the engraving community to enjoy and pass around.

It is my opinion that this is a extremely EXTREMELY useful tool for beginners who just want to get to cutting stuff. It makes laying out scrolls on metal extremely quick and easy. But more important , the lines are extremely durable if you allow the ink to dry unlike pencil marks on chinese white that will wipe off easily.

I will upload some pictures after my first post to show you what is included in the product (the pictures on the GRS website are garbage and dont show you what you are buying)



Basically the product is an ink pad with rubber stamps of various scroll spines and leaves in both left and right handed variations. There are 5 stamp sheets included in the kit. 2 are scroll spine patterns , one sheet for right and left hands. The other 2 are leaf designs for the scrolls both in left and right. And the final stamp is a leaf designs with both left and right designs on the same stamp.



The stamps are made of what seems to be a transparent rubber/vinyl material , very durable and will last a long time. They are flexible so it can be used on curved surfaces.

The ink pad that comes with it is labeled "carters stamp pad"

I learned quickly that pressing the stamps themselves into the stamp pad will result in poor results , which gets ink everywhere and results in very poor prints with smudges.



The optimal way to use these stamps is to dip your finger lightly on the ink pad and to lightly "ink" the raised lines on the stamp design you want. This results in a decent print and if you let it dry it will be very durable.








It also comes with a instruction book that is very informational and tells you how to create nice designs using multiple sized scrolls.

But the other fantastic thing about this kit is it comes in a big cardboard folder with a flap that velcros and keeps everything in the kit together so you wont lose any of it.

I will include some pictures after I upload them.

I actually like and use one if the 3 templates. The scroll backbone template helps with speed of layout. I even scanned it into the computer to do computer design.

One thing that I don't like about these templates is that they obviate the need to learn to draw a scroll properly. It can be tempting to use these and put off what has to be learned. It does not teach you important things like the design layed out on the steel practice plate has no spine.
I also hold the view that these things get around the design part quickly and on to the cutting which in my current opinion is one of the the least important parts of learning to engrave.
As long as it's not used as a crutch, it can be a useful learning tool. I had a similar template a while back and yes, it did speed up layout, but I was actually happy when the thing got lost. It was better for me and better for my work to do it all by hand.
Layne

I don't use it all the time, but there are times that it helps to see how different arrangements of scrolls will go together to fill an area.
It is a tool and, like all tools, has a definate place in most peoples toolkit.
It doesn't take the place of experience, but can hasten the development of lay-out skills.

The first kit you bought is designed to help you learn to draw some of the popular scroll shapes. It can of course be used for layout as well or to create transfers on paper. both have a good use. Fred

I think you're far better off paying your dues with a pencil and a sketchpad.

I think that for a beginner the scroll design kit is a good way to go. It helps to kick start your understanding of scroll.

However, it should be used in conjunction with hand drawing. One way to use the kit is to draw the scrolls by hand and then correct with the template. I did that a lot when I first started engraving and I found that it helped me understand how it all worked.

Eventually you will find that your reliance on the template diminished as your drawing skills increase.

Like most things, used wisely, it's a useful tool and drawing aid that can benefit you...........but it is not the answer to everything.

Cheers
Andrew

You can cut a piece of cellophane or thin plastic the size of the inked pad area. Then cut a hole in the center the size of the scrolls, leaves you are using. Place it over the pad and it'll be easier to ink the individual scrolls without making a mess.

When you think about it, we are truly blessed with all of this kind of thing. There is something for everyone at every level of engraving or artistic understanding. Let’s face it, if you have been a plumber all your life then getting your head around the artistic/design side of things can be a real challenge. In fact it is the hardest challenge. The cutting side of things is simply a mechanical process that can be learned like any other.

It wasn’t that long ago when all of this was simply not available. Photos of engraving used to be grainy and not all that good. Engravers held their secrets and never gave anything away. Even engravers that were friends would cover their work if another engraver walked into the workshop. Until Meeks there was very little written on the techniques of the subject.

Now we have the internet, good quality books and photographs, DVD’s, how to books, resin castings, engravers sharing their knowledge, drawing aids, sharpening aids, cutting aides, high quality tools that are readily available. The list goes on and on……….even the most challenged of people can take up engraving as a hobby if they so desire. It’s all there for those that want it, regardless of their background, experience, age or even physical handicap in some cases.

And dare I say it………….it’s cheap!!!! You can spend as little as you want or as much as you want. Even if you go to the most sophisticated technological high end, it’s still cheap.

Cheers
Andrew

Cheap is a relative thing... mostly to your income level and where on the planet you are located.

What is cheap to a hill tribesman in Thailand is not gonna be the same as what is cheap to most of the members of this forum.

We are, after all sitting at computers and using the Internet...

Be grateful for what you've got.


Brian

Hi Brian

Nah......it's cheap. Especially to those living in the USA where the suppliers live and manufacture. Compare it to any other hobby/sport and it's cheap. Ask any fly fisherman down at the river what everything has cost him including all the flies in his box. Ask any golfer how much money they have tied up in their equipment including green fees. Ask any home handyman how much are all the tools sitting in his garage cost. Ask anyone that has a boat how much money is tied up in their sport/hobby. And that's just what you can visibly see. Don't forget all the magazines and other stuff clogging up their garages that you can't see.

Okay, to the Pygmy Bandar living around the Skull Cave it may be a stretch but to the Western world...........it's cheap

Cheers
Andrew

i ended up making a bunch of these using my laser. sadly i seldom use them. in mid to late september, i'll be teaching (hopefully) a group of youngsters in the art of stone carving-- the old way. naturally, i gravitate to the scroll due to the versatility it brings to decorating unusual shapes. i just might buy this to start the little tykes designing on paper first. the thought never entered my mind until this post. tyvm

On a few occasions I've used the older scroll kit just to draw a backbone. Then I fill in the remainder of the design. Mostly I just draw the design. I don't make my scrolls as tight as the kit shows. I find that if my scrolls are not as tight there is room for more variation as to what I put in them. That is just me. I've always thought that drawing scrolls is like handwriting. No two people will draw them exactly alike, but they must be neat, clean, and attractive so it catches a persons attention.

I've mistakenly put my reply to scroll templates with this thread. Must not have been paying attention. Is there a way to get it in the correct place or delete it.

Used to create these (all old timers will remember) by making a drawing then use the plastic from the box x-mas cards came in(clear acetate), cut into flat sheets. Take a sharp scribe and scratch the lines. Fill the scratches with lamp black, soot, ground graphite from a lead holder sharpener. Carefully remove excess place on transfer wax prepared surface (hence the name) and burnish. Drawn in reverse of course or you could turn your drawing over and work from the back. I still use this method.

I bought a bottle of Tom Whites transfer solution when it first came out. Great product. Prepared transferred and cut the Geo. Washington sample-worked great. never used again. Tried the acetone transfer once too, also worked well. Would rather draw and transfer using Sam's wax (tried to make that myself too. Couldn't get tallow in SO GA). It's more work but I got time until time runs out-Fred

Fred,

There has to be a livestock auction somewhere down there. Treat yourself to a little mutton and save the drippings...

Don't think lamb will give much, but maybe?


Brian

sam said:

I think you're far better off paying your dues with a pencil and a sketchpad.

Click to expand...

X2 ! The last few weeks I've been trying to find a way to "cheat/find a short cut" my way through drawing designs for English Fine scroll...after getting frustrated I grabbed some tracing paper(have always liked to draw on tracing paper..weird I know) and sat down a took my time working out the design. Turned out much better than all the cheating attempts and I feel better about the results...But I do feel that a Intous 5 or a Cintiq 13HD might be the perfect balance for what I'd like to be able to do. Drawing on paper or computer is still drawing IMHO...
Snap a pic of a weapon, side view.
Upload the photo to PS
Draw on the photo with the tablet or Cintiq in separate layers and be able do the layout on screen.
I think it would help in getting to a finished product faster once the learning curve is overcome....

Donny

Hi Donny

That is a dangerous path that you want to go down and it could end in tears. It all depends on exactly how accurate you want the end result to be.

If you want to take a photo for a rough layout so you can draw directly onto the metal then that works.

If you want to take a photo, upload to PS and be accurate enough for a transfer..........then it doesn't work

The reason being is that you have to be 100% square onto the canvas when taking the photo otherwise you will get perspective distortion and it will be useless for transfers. It will also not work for any curved object. Even a very slight one.

You still cannot beat a smoke/ink pull, scan and trace into the computer. This is the only method I have found that is accurate to 99.99% of the canvas.

Drawing inlayers in PS.........Unless you have extremely good computer skills or are willing to devote a serious boatload of time and energy to it............don't go there. Pencil and paper are still by far the quickest and easiest way to do the drawings. It also helps you develop eye/hand skills that enable you to draw directly onto the metal as sometimes this is the easiest and fastest way to get the design done. You strike many canvasses where a transfer is simply not viable.

Yes, computers can be a great aid and tool in some circumstances during the design process. But that is all they are. A tool. Some people see them as the answer to all their design and drawing problems. They aren't. Some people also think that a computer will speed up the process and make shortcuts. They don't.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs said:

Hi Donny

That is a dangerous path that you want to go down and it could end in tears. It all depends on exactly how accurate you want the end result to be.

If you want to take a photo for a rough layout so you can draw directly onto the metal then that works.

If you want to take a photo, upload to PS and be accurate enough for a transfer..........then it doesn't work

The reason being is that you have to be 100% square onto the canvas when taking the photo otherwise you will get perspective distortion and it will be useless for transfers. It will also not work for any curved object. Even a very slight one.

You still cannot beat a smoke/ink pull, scan and trace into the computer. This is the only method I have found that is accurate to 99.99% of the canvas.

Drawing inlayers in PS.........Unless you have extremely good computer skills or are willing to devote a serious boatload of time and energy to it............don't go there. Pencil and paper are still by far the quickest and easiest way to do the drawings. It also helps you develop eye/hand skills that enable you to draw directly onto the metal as sometimes this is the easiest and fastest way to get the design done. You strike many canvasses where a transfer is simply not viable.

Yes, computers can be a great aid and tool in some circumstances during the design process. But that is all they are. A tool. Some people see them as the answer to all their design and drawing problems. They aren't. Some people also think that a computer will speed up the process and make shortcuts. They don't.

Cheers
Andrew

Click to expand...

Andrew,

I totally see your point and your logic is sound. Let alone the fact fact that it will save me A LOT of money. I would not use a tablet or Cintiq in any other aspect of my life. Doing the drawing isn't the easiest part of our craft...in all honesty I think it is one of if not the hardest/most important part. I have see some wonderfully executed work that was pure ugly from a design aspect. There are times where I start get to the end of a design thought and then I look at it and say I wish I would have.... If it was done in the computer I could fix it and try again much more quickly was my number one thought and focus on the topic at hand...

Donny

Hi Donny

Yes, it is the hardest part in many ways. And we all look at our designs and think they can be improved and the mistakes become obvious. That's just normal.

If you want to to speed things up then some of the old fashioned ways works as good as the day they were invented.

Smoke/ink pulls are great for getting the shape of the canvas. Place tracing paper over the top and outline with pen or pencil. Then you can scan outlines into the computer drawing/photo manipulation program. Then enlarge to desired size. (or use a photocopier)

Place tracing paper over the outline and start drawing. If you are nearly finished the design and see that something needs radically changing........then place another layer of tracing paper over the top and quickly trace over the good parts of what you have done. It's exactly the same as layers in Photoshop!!!!

Once your design is finished, scan into your computer. Size down, print, transfer, etc etc. If you draw in real size then you can pencil rub it on. There are all sorts of ways to do it that are easy and efficient and work as well as anything.

Just remember, your transfer does not have to be perfect. If it is a bit jaggy it doesn't matter. It is a throw away item that ends up in the rubbish bin. The thing that you really want perfectly done is the scroll backbones, curves and main elements. You may have to draw in a few areas with a burnisher. So many people get stuck on the "perfect" transfer that they forget that the transfer is just a part of the overall process.

You can darken your outlines before scanning with a Staedtler/Rotring technical pen. So when they scan they are black.........This is just the same as using a Wacom tablet.

For software I use the Adobe products like Illustrator and Photoshop. But I also use them for other things like editing the FEGA magazine etc etc. But you can still buy cheap old versions of Corel Draw and Corel paint that do the job perfectly for what you want. These programs are bigger than Texas but you will probably be lucky if you use 2% of the program. There are others that are free and a search will help you find them.

Don't get sucked into the whole computer deal........It's a great tool and can be really useful. No doubt about that. But like any tool, it's only as good as the person using it. Spend your precious time drawing and cutting. Not learning how to drive a computer program.

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. This thread started out as a scroll template system for the novice/beginner. It's old fashioned.....................but it works. You can spend a lot of money on computer software that takes quite a while to learn for about the same result as the template system.