"Stealing like an Artist"

Bob A · Jul 10, 2014

I've paid close attention to the sticky thread about "copying" peoples work and have given quite a bit of thought to the idea of what is copying and what isn't. This is because no matter what I draw, I can then find examples very similar to what I just "thought up myself".

I ran across this video that I thought might be of some interest - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oww7oB9rjgw.

I especially liked the quote from TS Eliot: "Immature poets imitate; great poets steal; bad poets take what they steal and deface it". When combined with the idea that "all art is stolen" (i.e. no art is original; it represents some sort of a mash up or subtractive mixture of art ideas that went before) I think that these ideas combined may pretty much sum up my philosphy on the subject -- Yours?

Bob

Toad · Jul 10, 2014

Same is true with music

don hicks · Jul 10, 2014

I agree with your assessment, there is nothing new, only that, that has been forgotten.
Don
ps People should remember that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, not a reason to sue.

dlilazteca · Jul 10, 2014

So if I understand what your saying, we should paraphrase engraving?

Saludos,

Carlos

Ron Spokovich · Jul 10, 2014

Copying someone's entire design, regardless of proportion or final size, probably would be infringement. Scroll for scroll, dot for dot, line for line probably would determine that. If doing the bolster or other areas of a knife, and wanting scrolls, it is very probable that there would be some degree of 'copying' involved you would not be aware of. I wouldn't worry about it. After all, no doubt you've seen a scroll elsewhere. I, nor anyone else, could possibly remember where we've seen some design that comes to mind. Unless it's a dead perfect copy of the work of someone else, there's nothing that you can do about it unless you develop some abstract, unique style that no one's done before. If you did, how would you ever know?

Southern Custom · Jul 10, 2014

I think this is especially true in engraving. Particularly for less experienced engravers. As time goes by one eventually puts his own stamp on things and the obvious goal is to develop a style that is singular and can point to a particular artist. It is a great aspiration to develop a style or technique that has never been seen before. When working with basic scroll designs, there is very little I can do that hasn't already been done. For now I try my best to do clean competent work. Hopefully at some point one could look at piece that I've done and say, "that was obviously cut by Layne Zuelke"
I really enjoy studying the work of advanced engravers to try and decipher what it is that makes their work distinct. Often, particularly with classic scrollwork, the things that make a style distinct to a particular artist are very subtle. Even given the same design, no two engravers would cut it the same way. That is just one of the things that makes this such a wonderful art form.
Layne

Bob A · Jul 10, 2014

dlilazteca said:
So if I understand what your saying, we should paraphrase engraving?

Saludos,

Carlos

Sounds like a good analogy to me!

Bob A · Jul 10, 2014

Ron Spokovich said:
Copying someone's entire design, regardless of proportion or final size, probably would be infringement. Scroll for scroll, dot for dot, line for line probably would determine that. If doing the bolster or other areas of a knife, and wanting scrolls, it is very probable that there would be some degree of 'copying' involved you would not be aware of. I wouldn't worry about it. After all, no doubt you've seen a scroll elsewhere. I, nor anyone else, could possibly remember where we've seen some design that comes to mind. Unless it's a dead perfect copy of the work of someone else, there's nothing that you can do about it unless you develop some abstract, unique style that no one's done before. If you did, how would you ever know?

So, this is where I begin to get confused: Is anything less than an exact counterfeit of someone's work still copying? At what point does it become copyright infringement?

It almost seems as if they only "exact" answer is the one given by the Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964): "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it <snip>."

Has there ever been a successful action around an engraving copyright of which anyone is aware?

Brian Marshall · Jul 10, 2014

Unless you plan to make hundreds of copies of a design, or thousands of dollars from one copy - I wouldn't worry about it. Life is too short.

Those who know you copied the work will out you - publicly.

If you made a profit - enough to make it worthwhile to bother, you will likely get a registered letter in the mail and things may take a turn for the worse.

Yes, there have been some actions, and I have a file on this computer, but for some reason cannot access them.

In total it rarely happens. Once outed, the copycat doesn't usually repeat the mistake.

If you are capable of creating an original design and get copied, you are ususally on to another design, and another, and another... leaving the copycat in the dust.

Brian

mitch · Jul 10, 2014

My 2 cents- we ALL have emulated those who've gone before us. NOBODY in any art form started out doing completely 'original' work (if there even is such a thing). here within our own little corner of the art world, my advice to newbies & pros alike is: if you're going to borrow bits & pieces of others' styles, techniques, etc., be sure to GIVE CREDIT where it is due. it makes a world of difference between passing something off as your own, and freely, generously, & gratefully acknowledging that you've picked up something from a fellow engraver. especially when it's so obvious where it came from...

atexascowboy2011 · Jul 10, 2014

Thanks Bob for posting this video.

Mitch, I agree with you, 100 percent.

The late, great Frank Hendricks, garnered my admiration when he stated that he copied Charlie Russell's images for his buckles. Frank also said that IF you had a mental block to revert to Nimsche. This man was a true artist/gentleman.

There is probably only a handful of artist/engravers in the entire world capable of coming up with justifiable "original" work, Winston Churchill and Lee Griffith being two. The masters overseas such as Phil Coggan and others that I don't know about, are" probably", included in this handful (a five finger hand!).
People who have never had an art class in their life doing picture perfect renderings of running elk, animals etc. "But I did the original scroll design!". BUT, YOU, STILL COPIED!!!

I ,myself, can't draw, $... ,unless you count stick figures as drawing. It took me TWO YEARS to develope my cowgirl mermaid drawing for my spurs. I borrowed bits and pieces from here and there, taking the same approch in my engraving.
Sam A. is one of a another handful that can come up with pretty much original scrolls.

There is nothing wrong , IMAO, with tweaking a design to fit your canvas.

I know that I have been pretty well ostracized on this forum, but as Weldon says, I speak my mind!

As Frank said, "I don't try to pass myself off as an artist".

dlilazteca · Jul 10, 2014

Well said,

I feel like I'm back in collage, need a references page, when I'm done with a piece, make sure it's in MLA style.

Saludos,

Carlos

Bob A · Jul 10, 2014

atexascowboy2011 said:
<snip>There is probably only a handful of artist/engravers in the entire world capable of coming up with justifiable "original" work <snip>.

That is exactly where my question began.... Thanks, TC!

atexascowboy2011 · Jul 11, 2014

Okay, Carlos, you got me with that scholarly input!
I had to Goog "MLA".
In my small opinion, that is uneccessary/impossible to do, as the mind traps bits and pieces of images that please it, without our cognizant knowledge, to resurface during our developing composing of a piece. I try to acknowledge , on my business card, those who have helped in furthering my education, but the list is so huge that I had to list the key players in my early developement and then "add many others".

Sam · Jul 11, 2014

Here's my take. Being influenced by another artist's work is one thing. Outright copying his or her signature style and using as your own is another thing. We all learn from copying and there's not an artist on the planet that hasn't done it. As our friend Rod Cameron so eloquently states, use another engraver's style as a launch pad and not a landing strip.

Copying another engraver's style for personal practice and study is one thing. Copying and selling it is a totally different story and most engravers consider this a breach of etiquette.

The old "Copying is the sincerest form of flattery" is a bunch of crap as far as many artists and designers are concerned.

atexascowboy2011 · Jul 11, 2014

I wonder if the person who invented the first scroll would feel infringed upon, IF , he were to show up today?

Don't take me wrong, I have no respect for people who copy "verbatim", to pass off as their own for profit, without acknowleging their sources

Back to my earlier argument, how many people that you know of, can 'REALLY' draw an animal, woman's body, etc. FROM SCRATCH !, without the use of computers, xeroxes, transfer film, transfer fluid, pirated downloads, etc. ?

As many have said, " LEARN TO DRAW ! " .

I'm just curious as to how many actually follow their own advice ?

Many years ago, a bunch of us farriers gathered for a seminar. After the lecture one farrier laid out around 20 horseshoes, stating that he had hand forged all of them. Most were awed by his work, but being me, I took the shoes, stacked them up and looked down through theapproximately 160 holes (8 holes per shoe)and they were perfect, which is impossible to punch by eyeball. I called his hand. His answer was that he didn't have his rig here. I told him that my fully equipped rig was at his disposal. FINALLY, he admitted in front of everyone that he had purchased machine made shoes that looked handmade.

My take, Sam, is that 99.9 percent of the engravers who visit the Cafe, do not engrave for a living, doing this only as a form of relaxation/hobby, NOT, to make a living, therefore they must use any means possible (like that old coloring book) to create their art.
Nothing wrong with that.

Bob A · Jul 11, 2014

Sam, and all others who replied, perfect. In addition to the other thoughts, the word "Influenced" was exactly the concept I needed to clear up the fog in my little pea brain. An influence can be strong, but yet it should still be an influence as opposed to a copy of an idea. Perhaps the definition of original work is 'what remains once influencing factors are subtracted'.

I'm sure this was crystal clear to everyone that has been doing this (or any art) for a while, so please forgive my lack of perspective.

Bob

"Stealing like an Artist"

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