HELP... Glensteel gravers question

Hello All,

I am new and was looking at the Glensteel gravers. I noticed that there were V-Point gravers offered by GRS. These come in pre-ground points of 60, 75, 105, and 120 degrees.

My question is this;

Are they narrower so one doesn't have to grind them down to create a smaller face or are they 3/32nds all the way down?

The pictures seem to show them being narrower but it is hard to tell.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bruce the newbie!

Hi Bruce

Not all of them are 3/32nds all the way down. The narrower the point will mean less metal on the sides like a 60 or 75.

When you shape up the belly (bottom) of the graver the narrower V angles will remove metal from their sides because they are less than 90 degrees. GRS has simply pre-shaped them for you to save a lot of grinding.

You may, or may not, depending on your personal preferences, still need to grind more off the sides and top to get smaller faces on the graver. Some prefer small faces and others large. My best advise is to have the size of the face fit the size of the job.

With these pre shaped gravers you still have to grind the heel. When they break or get dull/blunt, then you will have to grind the face and heel to sharpen them..............You can't go wrong with Glensteel as it is a very good choice of graver and will serve you well.

Will you be hand sharpening or using a power hone???.......if hand sharpening I would advise that you start with the Glensteel square (90 degree) graver. It would be the easiest to sharpen by hand. If using a power hone then the pre-shaped 105 would serve you well, or stick with a square. The narrower gravers like 60 and 75 are specialist tools more suitable for delicate bulino or stone setting applications.

Cheers
Andrew

Good answer Andrew. The pre-shaped gravers cut down on initial shaping. But the first time you break a point you better know how to sharpen that geometry.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the reply and info!

I am planning on purchasing a power hone package from GRS. It is expensive for a beginner but from what I've read and from what I've gleaned from reading, is that to be successful in engraving, having a correctly sharpened graver can help immensely. If I have no talent or skill for engraving I can always sell the hone anyways.

Thanks all!

BKJ said:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the reply and info!

I am planning on purchasing a power hone package from GRS. It is expensive for a beginner but from what I've read and from what I've gleaned from reading, is that to be successful in engraving, having a correctly sharpened graver can help immensely. If I have no talent or skill for engraving I can always sell the hone anyways.

Thanks all!

Click to expand...

You sure can engraving equipment really holds its resale value, you wont loose much, I made a video on how to sharpen and with a cheaper hone that many use that wont break the bank if your starting just an option, can free up some money for other goodies.

it can be found here

http://youtu.be/BnAoV7l_jqM

Thanks Carlos! I will watch it when I get home.

BKJ, you may also want to consider the Lindsay sharpening templates. While I am a big fan of the GRS fixtures and have used them for 30 years or so, including the 14 years I taught classes for GRS, I have to say for beginners, the Lindsay system is much more intuitive and correct results are easier to achieve.


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Scott, you are correct except for the easy graver fixtures. There is nothing easier than GRS's easy grgraver.

I was planning and most likely will buy the GRS power hone system that is the complete set including the sharpening fixture. After watching Sam's dvd, I see the repeatability of sharpening and from what I've read, having a properly sharpened graver can help in the learning experience and lesson the frustration factor.

I would have to disagree with Scott.

With the dual angle fixture you can create any graver that you want at any angle you want. You can also sharpen a lot of other tools that we use. It is certainly the most versatile sharpening devise on the market and it is intuitive and the correct results easy to achieve.

As far as the actual technique of sharpening goes, a newbie should not be daunted by all the different angles as it is a piece of cake. It’s just a bit of math.………….. Just follow the instructions that comes with it.

Once you have shaped up and sharpened one graver you get the idea really quickly. There’s actually no mystery to sharpening. It’s a matter of preference and using the right tool for the job in hand.

All the templates/ pre-set fixtures have their place and work really well. I love my Easygraver fixtures for certain jobs and others love their Lindsay templates. But they are limited to that particular configuration. They are essentially a labour (and memory) saving devise.

Cheers
Andrew

Having both systems I say that if you're out on your own you should start with the Lindsay system. The templates are darn-near foolproof (I think I can still find a couple of proofs they can be fooled. ).

If you have someone to help you get going the GRS Dual Angle is, as noted, infinitely flexible. There's nothing you can make with a template you can't make with the Dual Angle.

The problem is that you have to figure out how to make things with the Dual Angle. Basic geometry is simple enough that all you really need is just someone to video conference with you, perhaps even a good video demonstration and you're good to go.

I can't speak to the EasyGraver units since I haven't had a chance to play with one yet but I did recommend one to a friend who does almost all his work with a 105 so hopefully I'll get to play with one soon.

One other note: the EasyGraver and the templates will always give you the exact same angles. On the DualAngle you set the angle looking at the marks so there's always a chance for infinitesimal differences.

Andrew, I absolutely agree with you about the dual angle.

But you totally missed my point. For beginners, whom I've taught many at Emporia and elsewhere, I absolutely believe that seeing the angle they are creating in miniature helps them create what they need.

The simple reality is that far too many of the students I have seen do not do well with basic math and are totally lost with Geometry. And that's the problem pure and simple. And the BESt solution I have found in multiple teaching sessions is the Lindsay templates. I have seen results occur faster with better results too many times.




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I think the problem with sharpening is that people over think the whole deal. Especially newbies and part time hobbyists.

You certainly don’t need video conferencing or anything else to use a dual angle fixture. Just read the instructions that come with it, apply a bit of logic and practice, then you are away. That is how I learnt to use it and I’m not a mathematical genius by any stretch of the imagination. It is a bit of really basic maths like addition and subtraction. I know that reading instructions is a foreign concept to most of us, especially us blokes…………But you will be amazed at what you learn simply by reading them

People get hung up on weather or not you use a 15 or 17 degree lift, or a 90 versus a 105 and all the rest of it. If the heels don’t quite meet in the middle it’s not that bigger deal. The fact is that none of that actually matter 95% of the time…………….what really matters sometimes is the face angle to give extra strength when needed or the width of the graver if doing big bold and deep flare cuts etc. What matters is that the graver is sharp and doing the job you need it to do. All of these things you learn as you grow with engraving and it is the knowledge of using what tool and where that makes the difference to the cutting.

The reality is that infinitesimal differences make no difference to the cutting as you will compensate almost immediately. People get way to hung up on some of this stuff. Think back to the days when the only option was hand sharpening. Each time the graver was sharpened it was different. Within a couple of cuts the eye/hand compensated for the differences. Gravers weren’t checked by eye, they were checked by cutting. Look at the fabulous work that was, and still is, being produced by this method.

Cheers
Andrew

Scott.......just read your second post. That is a frightening observation for the future of mankind let alone engraving

Newbies have to gain an understanding of what it is they are doing and why if they are to grow within the art. Sometimes instant gratification is not always the best long term solution to someones learning.

Buttttttt all that said, it sure is nice to get something perfectly compatible with your hand piece If you are going the GRS hand piece route and it uses the QC collets, get a fixture that accepts the QC collets. The QC quicker clicker fixture is great. But it does require more thinking and understanding to achieve useable gravers


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All great advice.... But what everyone forgot to mention, is that he should start with a 90 degree (more control) but what ever templete he chooses. And very important buy one pre sharpened graver so he can study and compare when he is sharpening

So for example, I use lindsay templates. I buy the lindsay 90 template buy one pre sharpened graver. Buy me some blanks and first try to achieve and match that 90 degree. To some this might seem fool proof but there's still things to perfect. How much should you remove, how small will you make the point. It's it sharp enough? All this can be answered with a template and one pre sharpened graver.

There is nothing better than being able to study one sharpened by a professional.

What worked for me was the templates first, I leaned what the 90, 105, 120, and many other angles are supposed to look like . Now that I am very familiar with what a graver should be sharpened like I'm expanding to the GRS dual angle fixture to create other angles.

One comment I read was from Joe we all know and have seen her great work on watches.

She stated something to the sorts that when you're starting don't get all hung up on how many angles and faces and whatever. Just get one and start cutting. (Sorry Joe I might have messed up your advice, but I could not find where I had read it)



My two cents worth.
.

Saludos,

Carlos

BKJ: One thing i think is very important when sharpening is to use magnification when checking the facets on the bottom of the graver. It is very important to make sure that they are equal width so that the tool will track straight. Long heel for straight lines, short heel for tight corners and very small scrolls. Also being that i use carbide for almost all my cutting you need to dubb the tip to extend tool life. It even helps to dubb the tip on high speed steel. I also use a cast iron lap on the face of my carbide gravers which gets them really sharp. You won't believe how much better your tools will cut when they are sharp.

I agree with Andrew.
I could never get by with tamplates alone. They are excellent for new engravers but as for professional engravers as myself, I use so many different geometries that I wuold have to have dozens of templates to get by. The GRS system is unlimited but you have to understand why the geometry of gravers are the way they are. I only wished The GRS hone were variable speed.

Wow! Dozens!?

I hope this bump isn't a nuisance (if so, mods, please let me know) but as a new guy who is seeing a few other news guys on board here Inthought it was worthwhile info to bring back instead of starting another thread... I just received my GRS adjustable handle set and a brace of Glensteel square gravers (002-115) along with some thermo loc and Glensteel blanks to use with a soon-to-be-purchased dual angle hone. Sam's video on sharpening gravers really sold me on the system and I'll tell you why....

I'm an idiot (if you don't believe me, ask my wife!!) , and I need something that will work simply and be repeatable.

Seriously though, I had a couple of questions I was going to ask as a noob and this thread answered them all, plus some and I thought it would be helpful to others.

I'm not happy with Glensteel gravers. I cut a lot of brass and nickel silver, both abrasive materials and Glensteel just doesn't seem to hold up as well as Lindsay M42 and some cobalt tool bits from my machinist days.
(I also use some gravers made from industrial grade hacksaw blades.)

I use both the Dual Angle fixture (really a universal head) and Lindsey's templates. With the Dual Angle I can shape any degree tool I dream up. Although the Lindsay templates are very fast for common graver sharpening.