Forgery

Question.
If someone comes to you and wants something engraved on a gun that they have. Say on a flintlock, a Brown Bess for instance. Their gun does not have the same markings as the one in the book. He wants his to look like the one in the pics. Is this fringing on Forgery? And what do you do.

Since the Brown Bess was a military weapon, copying the engraving of an original shouldn't be a problem, with the possible exception of the proof marks. Adding initials or names giving it a provenance it doesn't deserve is a consideration, I suppose.

Which brings up another factor: the motive of the owner. If the intent is to pass the gun off as an original by distressing the metal & wood and selling it as such, I think I would decline. A collector would recognize it as a fake, but others might not. A few years back a local antique arms dealer asked me to add a couple letters to a civil war carbine. I asked if that would increase the collector value and he said it would by about $5000. I suggested where he might put the gun; I didn't want to be involved.

HEY FRED would that not be painful ?

Yes but only to the guy that want's to make a quick buck on the backs of others!

Phil

You could engrave "reproduction" somewhere on it.. That would help keep everything legitimate. My two cents.

Josh

Or just charge him $5000 for the letters!

Hey Monk- Not too painful; it was a carbine not a rifle!

SamW- Wish I'd thought of that.

Phil- I wondered how many other shady deals this guy's pulled. I see him often at gun shows, but we ignore each other, thank goodness.

It's not to important, who is going to authenticate- RL Wilson. He can always say that some former employee kind of remembers that the gun was ordered for the Romanoff family maybe, possibly they think and get a quarter million. Forgery-Look at some of the engraving passed of to the collecting public as master engraver so and so work which has failed the first test of enhancing the TRUE value of the gun not what some ad writer thinks.

hi Tony- i'm just chiming in to say i love your Hobbes avatar!

Is the gun an original, a factory replica such as Pedersoli, or a contemporary built gun?
It may even be a gun assembled from original parts. Can YOU tell the difference?

There is a remote chance that someone might want to enhance an original for personal gain, but that would be a rare occurrence. In the realm of Civil War collectors, it is not uncommon for guys to buy original parts that are in better condition than the ones on a gun they own. For instance, replacing a heavily pitted lock or one with worn lettering with one that is smooth and still has pristine lettering. These things do not add thousands to the value of a gun, but rather only to it's appearance. The fraud in this venue is trying to add Confederate provenance to a gun.

Historical reenactors want guns that are correct for the period they reenact and have contemporary guns built to do this. There are barrelmakers who will replicate barrels and have the stamps to add period markings to those barrels. In addition, Track of the Wolf sells a set of stamps that an individual can purchase. Bench copies of particular guns are frequently reproduced. Bama, and I believe Lane, were recently involved in such projects. There is no fraud involved in the replication of these guns and their value will stand alone representative of the time and craftsmanship required to build the gun.

There are many reasons to add things without it being forgery. However, most people immediately condemn those reasons as fraudulent.

Very informative response not a smart a** like mine but very interesting. Thanks Fred

SamW said:

Or just charge him $5000 for the letters!

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$5000 plus for the work .....

I have noticed this trend in Japanese Swords and also Tattoo Machines. In Japanese sword collecting, a fake signature was called gimei and it was often explained as a tribute to a famous sword maker, and it wasn't expected to be passed off as the original because swords often passed down in families, until WWII. Tattoo machines with famous builders' names scratched into them are also presented as "tributes" but I believe that those are actually made with the express intention of forgery. In the case of firearms, engraving something that is so period-accurate that it would fool a dealer might be done ethically if you would add a discrete signature and date-one that might not easily be removed.

Thanks for all the input. This is not the first time he has asked me to add something to a gun that did not have what was in a book. I told him that I could not reproduce the quality of work he was looking for. Also most of the pics looked to be stampings.

I have indeed been involved in the re-creation of antique arms. And all the concerns with forgery are legitimate. It really boils down to what are the intentions of the owner. In Fred's case, it is fairly obvious what the owner was trying do accomplish. On the other hand, we do build bench copies and so called "documentary" guns that often are near exact replicas of original guns. These are mostly purchased by collectors of contemporary works. It is one of the reasons the Contemporary Longrifle Association was formed. When looking at many of the pieces that are produced with an aged patina, the uninformed consumer could indeed believe they were purchasing an original piece.
A few examples I've seen were a Kentucky Longrifle being sold by a reputable auction house as an original gun. A collector who knew the provenance of the rifle pointed this out to the house and the catalog was changed before the auction. I don't believe the auction was intentionally trying to deceive the public. It's just that the rifle was built so darned well to resemble an original down to the rust and powder staining behind the lockplate. (quite often re enactors want rifles that appear to be old rather than new production)
In Vegas I saw a set of Purdey flintlock pistols that were near pristine. I just happened to know that one of the Damascus barrels was not Damascus. It was in fact a very clever restoration done by a friend with a technique he developed. The problem here is that years later the guns ended up in the market again and whether that dealer will disclose this info or not is the question.
The guns it was mentioned that Jim and I had worked on were bench copies. In my case the reproduction of a pistol owned by Andrew Jackson. The copy was darned near perfect. We included one major difference. The original was stamped with the makers name Creamer on the side of the lock. Our copy was stamped by the man who made it, Bob Browner.
I've seen contemporary quillwork, hunting bags and powder horns being passed off as originals.
With all I've seen in the last year I've come to the opinion as of late that all makers of contemporary aged pieces should make it their responsibility to insure that these items don't end up being sold as original antiques to an unwitting buyer at a gun show years later. A simple date stamp would do the job. In my case I always engrave my name and date on the back of the lockplate. (I'm quite sure this same discussion has been had hundreds of times over hundreds of years)

Southern Custom said:

(quite often re enactors want rifles that appear to be old rather than new production)

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I've been shooting black powder since 1968, rendezvousing, and Cowboy Action Shooting for a bunch of years and I never could understand that mindset. People wouldn't be shooting 150 year old guns that looked old 150 years ago. They more than likely shot guns that weren't more than 10-20 years old like most people do nowadays. And, they more than likely took very good care of them due to the cost of them and how hard they were to come by. Maybe they feel more "authentic" that way. I suppose reenactors 150 years from now will want an old worn out rusty Remington 700 BDL with a banged up scope or beat to heck Browning Citori so they can be authentic.

I hope that people in this country, 150 years from now can still own the guns, think of the wonderful arms that were destroyed in Great Britain. Phil mentioned the loss of his collector pieces. Think of the ivory from the museums like the Denver Museum of natural history that some idiot ordered destroyed. Think positive act positively.

Marrinan said:

I hope that people in this country, 150 years from now can still own the guns, think of the wonderful arms that were destroyed in Great Britain. Phil mentioned the loss of his collector pieces. Think of the ivory from the museums like the Denver Museum of natural history that some idiot ordered destroyed. Think positive act positively.

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For me, it is a very difficult to write what I want to say, because I am ESL. However Fred said exactly what I was thinking, thank you Fred

Doc you are not alone in your thoughts about re enactors. While I do participate in re enactments and a good deal of my business comes from that community, I've always found it amusing the way re enactors wear their dirty linen with a sense of pride. It is very hard to sell a gun unless it has a significant amount of wear to it.
Reminds me of a job my mentor in flintlock building was asked to "work" on. The owner wanted his new, very well made flintlock broken and stitched back together with a 'period correct" repair, in addition to being very distressed. My buddy literally took the gun by the barrel and cracked the stock against a tree much to the owners satisfaction and much to my friends dismay. Sometimes the customer is not always right.
Layne

I've carved reproductions of antique sculptures. My contract always states that I will carve my name and the date in the piece.