Hand push with the EasyGraver 105° graver

I have seen Johns work up close. It's damned nice. I think it's time John puts a picture of himself on here so the readers can really be impressed. John you have my deepest respect as you are a man with talent and determination.

That's some fine looking engraving! It has a very unique style and originality. I like it a lot.

Well,the McKenzie tapes are still available.
His techniques are still valid.
michael

This thread has been interesting to me because like Sam said, not much hand pushing issues are talked about on the forums.

I only hand push. Been doing it as a hobby for longer than I care to admit since my results and skill level don't correspond too well to the hours I have spent at it.

This thread has pretty much confirmed my thoughts about graver geometry for hand pushing. which are:

1) The parallel heel or Lindsay template geometries don't work well for hand pushing, except in a few circumstances. I own at least five Lindsay templates and have spent alot of time trying to use them. The problem I have have is they require too much force to push the graver through the metal, resulting in loss of control and slips. And wear and tear on your wrist and hand. Otherwise the 96, 116, and 120? templates are great.

2)Width of graver: My experience is similar to Phil's. 5 degrees makes a huge difference unlike with power assist. I use mostly 90 degree face. Sometimes 95 or 100. Only can use 105 on soft metal. Gave up trying to use anything wider.

3) The face angle, included angle, or angle of the face with the heel on the the work needs to be lower with push power versus air assist.

4)When using a non parallel geometry that is suitable for push power you have to use a different technique. In the old engraving books, and Meeks book, they show how to cut script lettering, and where to start and and stop your cuts. With a parallel heel geometry these starts and stops are not needed. The stops and starts are to eliminate heel drag when using a non parallel heel geometry. Also to reduce point damage since the old geometries are not as strong as the parallel heel geometry due to their lower face angle.

5) A common advise to beginners on a tight budget, can't afford power assist, is to buy a Lindsay template since it is the easiest, most foolproof, and cheapest way to get a graver properly sharpened. I totally agree, except that I have yet to find a Lindsay template that is suitable for push power.
On my to do list is to make a template that produces the geometries I use. Should not be too hard. Then give Steve Lindsay a copy to manufacture if he feels that is worthwhile as far as how good the geometry is for hand pushers, and if it is worthwhile to him to make it. I know it would not be a money maker for Steve, but I don't think that would stop him from making it it he felt it would help people. I think we should rethink the advise given to beginners that can only afford to hand push.

6) Parallel heel geometries result in a different look than traditional hand push geometries. Sometimes it is good or better. Mostly it does not matter. But if you trying to restore old engraving or copy old engraving you should use the same geometry that was originally used. But you don't have to hand push to copy the look of old engraving. Otherwise, it will just not look right to someone that is familiar to how old engraving looks. They do not know anything about graver geometry, power assist versus hand push etc. Let alone GRS versus Lindsay versus En Set and don't care. All they know it is not right, and on a old watch they will quickly walk away and say bad things under there breath about how someone ruined a watch or did something fraudulent. I am a vintage watch dealer and restorer. I have often seen this reaction. Not on any work I have done, because I have not tried to re engrave anything except on junk worn out stuff for practice and learning. Have learned it is very hard to duplicate or recut or restore old engraving on watches. Sort of like duplicating someones handwriting to the point where the the original hand writer could not tell which is his writing, and which is not. Unless you can do a great job that is acceptable to knowledgeable people you should not take on the job.

Some other thoughts about hand pushing:
If you want to make a living at engraving forget hand pushing. Takes too long to learn. Too much wear and tear on your hands and wrist. And you will be competing against air assist engravers that can can do work faster than you can with as good or better results than you.

Hand pushing is not really a good stepping stone to air assist. Air assist is a good stepping stone to hand pushing. Because with hand push you are trying to learn power push and control at the same time. With air power you not dealing with the power problem so much, so you can focus on the control issues. My advise to someone that aspires to get an air assist system when they can afford it, but wants to engrave now , is to go hammer and chisel. And use a Lindsay template.

But as a hobby, push power is beautiful. Really enjoy it. And have no desire to go to air assist. I am pretty well equipt, with many books etc. About $2500 worth of stuff. And my net cost is cost to zero due to my profits buying and selling of engraving tools. Only thing I would want now is a GRS dual angle fixture and a cast iron lap. And I could buy those now, pay GRS new price, at no cost by selling some more stuff that I don't use.

The point is, Engraving does not have to be an expensive hobby. Nor is it expensive to buy the tools needed to be professional compared to other trades. True, to go professional, you should pay for for expensive schooling and lessons. But that is also true for other trades and skills.

If you want to engrave, don't make excuses, money or other things. But you must love to do it, and love good engraving.

I just engraved a sterling silver pendant as a gift for an old and great friend that is in in the hospital and in very bad shape. Have not seen her in over 35 years. My friend is still out of it since her surgery 12/19/13. Gave the pendant to her sister to give to her sister when she becomes conscious. Even though my engraving has flaws, the sister was thrilled with it. She loved it. If my friend never regains consciousness and never sees what I made, it will still have a impact on her family and will very slightly lesson the blow of losing her. Hopefully my friend will revive long enough to see and hold the pendant and she will understand how much she means to me. I also brought a box of very high quality chocolates that cost me $20.00. That really had no impact on the sister. My engraving gift meant far more to the sister than anything I could have bought. Instead of just engraving on practice metal, I make gifts for friends. Have given away about 30 engravings so far. The pay back is great, even though I did not get any money. If my friend lives and sees what I what I made for her, all the many hours i have spent trying to learn to engrave will be justified even if I never engrave anything again. How can you put a price on that ? That is one of the reasons I engrave and love engraving. Even though I am not very good at it.

Mr. Kevin Scott. Thank you for your list of thoughts, you realy make some interesting points. Also, thank you for your story. I realy hopes it works out well for your friend, but whatever happends, you'll always know you did a good thing.

3) The face angle, included angle, or angle of the face with the heel on the the work needs to be lower with push power versus air assist.


That is the opposite of my experience.

Haraga.com said:

3) The face angle, included angle, or angle of the face with the heel on the the work needs to be lower with push power versus air assist.


That is the opposite of my experience.

Click to expand...

Kevin: Thanks for your excellent post.

It was my experience as well with a lower face angle seemed to work better for hand pushing, but the EasyGraver fixture is set to 50° and it works great.

Michael tundratrekers: Yes, McKenzie's method is still valid, but I never saw Lynton use a push graver for anything other than shading or fine hairline borders, etc. He used a short heel on his push gravers and the angle was much lower than his chisels. It's been my experience that hand pushing larger designs with long cuts requires a longer heel.

Nice words Kevin Scott, I've 23 years of hand-engraved with flat chisel, the best jobs I did are to give away and the greatest satisfaction I got, I travel business with my chisel, pencil, Arkansas stone, ball engraving.
This method has its limitations and can only record soft metals but also has its advantages allowing me to record anywhere, Greetings Sebastian.

Bonitas palabras Kevin Escott, llevo 23 años de grabado a mano con buril plano, los mejores trabajos que hice son los que regale y los que mayor satisfacción me dieron, recorro los negocios con mi buril, lápiz, piedra de Arkansas, bola de grabado.
Este método tiene sus limitaciones y solo puedo grabar metales blandos pero también tiene sus ventajas permitiéndome grabar en cualquier lugar, saludos Sebastián.

My graver you see here I use it for hand pushing inside lettering.
Both this one and my Bulino graver have no real heel and I can’t control them the way I can when hand pushing.
My main graver I use for almost all engraving is the same, only I add a short heel at 20°
These main facets, the red arrow is pointing on, varies from mainly 10° to 25° like this one, and a 50° face.
I like the extra lift when holding the graver.
So my conclusion is that a graver without a heel, is easier to control when hand pushing.

I have to add here that I almost never have drag, not even on micro scrolls.

arnaud

Thanks Kevin, I like your comment
I took only 5 years with tire and since it is where I am giving account of the large number of alternatives for different sharp, but actually are not entirely applicable to push engraving.
I I got used to record just with Burin square to 45º (approx) and not just change the heel. and I'm still doing it when I need to record with thrust.

Gracias Kevin, me gusto tu comentario
Yo llevo solo 5 años con el buril neumatico y desde entonces es donde me estoy dando cuenta de la gran cantidad de alternativas de los diferentes afilados, pero efectivamente no son del todo aplicables a el grabado de empuje.
Yo me acostumbre a grabar simplemente con buril cuadrado a 45º (Aprox) y sin variar apenas el talon. y sigo haciendolo cuando necesito grabar a mano con empuje.