What do you do if this happens?

A post I just read made a light go off in my head, not specifically about the following subject but close enough to make me ask this question. What do you do if you find out someone else is creating work then signing your name on it? It is not unusual for people to copy work, that is a subject unto itself filled with many strong emotions, however, two things have happened this past year that were totally unexpected and thus the post. I knew eventually some of my work would begin to be resold, but I never expected it to be copied or imitated and sold as my own. Case one is where a buyer has a nickel in his collection that I did not do yet it has my initials, and no, it isn't Sam's work. I used to sign SA until I realized Sam Alfano and I have the same initials. Is there another SA out there? Case two is still a mystery. Someone offered four hobo nickels for sale to a client of mine who then asked that they be verified. He called me asking to do so and I told him to send photos and I would say if the work was mine or not. The client told the seller through a middle man that he knew me personally and that I was more than happy to confirm. That seller was never heard from again, and having to go through a third and fourth party made it easy for the holder of the coins to drop out of sight. I can only assume the coins were not legit, or were sold to someone else. Although the thought of someone cashing in on another's reputation is bothersome, I'm not sure I can do much about it because I am clueless as to how to find out where the stuff is coming from.

WOW, Steve!

I had a similar situation some time back: A client was shown pictures of my work to approve for an engraving job on his item. The client was very confused when he discovered a picture of the same item on my site & contacted me about the issue. Apparently whomever it was liked what they saw online & offered to duplicate it for him. Unfortunately (& this is the crux of the issue here)they left out the part where THEY DID NOT DO THE ENGRAVING shown in the photo emailed to the client! I spoke with my attorney about the issue & we decided not to pursue it legally.
I have always tried to be honest & ethical in my dealings with clients & peers & it is a real rub when you find out something like that is happening.
The folks who perpetrate these kind of dealings will eventually expose themselves for what they are - liars! Hopefully it will be before they drag us (artists, engravers, etc..) through the mud along with them. This forum & others like it help significantly. Because we can communicate in real-time (around the world) we can immediately discuss issues like this one. This will make it increasingly difficult (though not impossible) for the unscrupulous types to do their thing!
As for what to do: Always strive to take the higher road, live right and treat others as you would like to be treated & you will be blessed! Eventually those who choose to be dishonest will reap what they sow!

My two cents,

Weldon

Incidentally, I didn't get the job I spoke of in the illustration above. I hope whomever did the work did a good job for the client! (& didn't sign my name to it either!!)

Here's a story kind of along the same line.
When Sam took the photos of me hand-feeding the hummingbirds in our yard last year, we sent them to several friends. These friends sent them to their friends. Before long, much to our amazement, I was recieving emails from people all over the world commenting on the photos and congratulating me on the experience.
Then, a lady from Kentucky sent me an email and said that a woman in Lexington sent one of our photos (one just showing my hands and the hummingbirds) in to a newstation there and claimed that SHE was the lady in the photo. She won a photo contest with a photo Sam had taken!!!
I was so irritated that I wrote the newscaster and sent in several more of the photos showing that it was ME in the photos and explaining that SAM was the photographer, NOT the lady (and i use that term very lightly) that claimed she was ME! I explained to the newscaster that I knew he had no way of knowing that he was 'scammed' and that I wasn't blaming the newscaster for anything, that I just wanted the truth to be known.
He wrote me back a nice letter apologizing and promised to "call the lady out" on the next show.
It is just beyond my comprehension that people would take credit for other people's art. I don't see how there can be ANY satisfaction in that. I mean, inside, they know the truth.
Now...excuse me while I get down off of my soap box.
Thank you very much. I feel better now.
Abigail

I guess where there is a dollar to be made you will find theives, scammers, liars and ripp-off artists. That's the nature of these low life sort of people.

What you can do about it is the hard part.

Run yourself ragged and begger yourself financially with lawyers for a dubious outcome?

Or, as Weldon say's, take the high road in the hope that these people will be exposed and move onto greener pastures?

It's a tough call and I suspect that this topic will still be around in 100 years from now.

Cheers
Andrew

I think it may be a good idea for the collector to check with the artist to verify a coin or engraved gun, knife whatever. I also think the artist should be compensated for the efforts, it would be similar to an appraisal and should have a charge applied for it,even if it be minimal. I don't photo document every little thing I make or engrave, but bigger more valuable items or items I think may be collectible one day are. I'm sure most photograph their work now days. You can't stop copying but by verifying the item it can be controlled somewhat and maybe it would help discourage it also. It is considered forgery or misrepresentation legally I'm sure. It could if out of control hurt the value of the artists work, which could more legal grounds.
Just my thoughts.

I must apologize if my post about using carbon paper to trace designs, specifically about the relative ease of cutting your own or using someone else's design caused anyone any angst. I certainly would never condone anyone knocking anyone else off. I do recommend that aspiring engravers trace and try to cut the work of master engravers to get the feel of how it's done. But it should never, ever be put up for sale or even displayed as one's own work. This is not my original idea, I've seen it in several different places. I just assumed anyone reading my post would know where I was coming from. I guess I should have made that disclaimer.

I'm sorry Steve, if my post caused you painful memories.

Dave

Dave,
No problem, and it wasn't your post. I enjoy all the contributions here. It was another post that clicked in my head. Now I'm going to have to go back and look.
Abigail - I loved those hummigbird photos, as did my wife and mother. I'm with you and share your sentiment on that "lady".
Weldon - you hit the nail on the head with the comment about taking the high road. At least I can count on the high level of integrity of the members of this forum, it is refreshing.

Steve, if it was my post you were referring to, please let me explain my situation a little further. In my post where I said, "During this time period I have engraved other silversmiths products and never received the credit. I have fabricated, stamped another's benchmark and then engraved the product; again receiving no credit. About only 20% of the work that came out of my shop actually had my name on the back." Please allow me to defend myself. In actuality I was contracted by XYZ silversmiths or The ABC Company to engrave and/or fabricate their own product and in most of these cases I also benchmarked their own logo's with XYZ Silversmiths or the ABC Company's steel stamp that they had furnished for me. My point was that I was the benchman/engraver yet XYZ Silversmiths/ The ABC Company received all credit due. My ultimate point was that I genuinely felt validated by the compliments I received in that original post. I would by no means plagiarize anothers work and seek accolades or monetary compensation. I agree that the act you are speaking of is extremely unethical and of low moral character. Please forgive me Steve for being presumptuous if it was not my post that brought this to light for you. (Man...the english language sure is fun!)

Kind regards,
Greg Pauline

Yeah that sucks!!

The bit and spur business is notorious for just that, I ve had it done to me several times and Its "chicken spit" I used to sell to dearlers and some of them who could not get the production they wanted from me would just send one oversees and have it knocked off. A specific time that I remember is one of my best selling bits came out in the NRS catalog for $30.00 In the picture at least it looked like mine. Even then I didnt have my mark on it, that would have been to much! i'm curious if all creaters of original art have protection? The trend in the bit and spur world is so predictable, first the handmade guys, to Mexico for less, then to China for even less then no one wants that style anymore. It the nature of the beast i guess. luckily the demographic thats buying our work now wouldnt buy import junk.

Steve,

That is why I never thought it was a good idea to sign with initials. There are a lot of guys out there with the initials SA. Thats why I always sign my stuff with R-Cover. I know nickels are small but it can be done (I sign them around the outside of the rim). There are only 9 Raymond Covers alive on earth right now and only one of us engraves. There are a ton of guys with the initials RC and some of them probably engrave. By not using initials it keeps the innocent accidental misidentification from happening.

Another option is to come up with a unique mark or emblem as your signature

As far as out and out forgeries, There isn't a lot you can do to prevent that. As long as there are crooks in the world you will have that kind of activity. At the level your work is at though there are very few people who could pull of a successful forgery and all of those guys have solid enough careers of their own that they would not need to nor have a desire to resort to such things.

my 2 cents,

Ray

Ray makes a good point about signing with initials. I initial mine, but in a decorative intertwining script SA that would probably be difficult for someone inclined to counterfeit. But signing my last name does make it more difficult, especially if done in crisp microlettering.

I received an email a few months ago from a collector who asked me for advice on authenticating engraving. He didn't specify what it was (gun, nickel, knife, etc), and I figured if he wanted to tell me he would. He wanted to know if I had any tips I could share on how to tell if a certain person did the engraving or not, and if I'd heard of any instances of engravers forging the work of other engravers. I told him that I'd not heard of anyone doing this, and now with Steve's post I'm curious if it could have been nickels.

There was a knife for sale on Ebay recently that was described as being engraved by McKenzie. I'm not sure if the seller was trying to deceive anyone or not, but it was NOT engraved by McKenzie, nor was it signed.

I've had my work copied but no one's ever signed my name to it as far as I know. One guy copied some of my nickels and when I approached him with comparison photos of his work to mine, he still denied it. Obviously not man enough to own-up to his mistake. At least he didn't sign my name.

Keep us posted, Steve. I'll be curious to know if any new info develops.

~Sam

I went back to find the post that got me thinking. Coincutter said he spoke to someone who thought he had purchased one of his nickels. It looked like his work, but was not. As it turned out it was someone he was helping over the internet and the work was similar. No posts have offended me at all guys and I appreciate the concern, I should have been more specific. What Coincutter said is familar to me, but then of course I started thinking about the mystery SA nickels. I think each engraver has a strong opinion about copying. It is the flattery/stealing debate, but misrepresenting is a whole other ballpark. I went through a bit of what Sam mentions about nickels being copied and it is frustrating, especially when the person habitually does it. Like Sam I confronted several people about this mostly without success, but eventually the copying slowed down. The copying also dropped dramatically when I stopped showing new carvings and removed most of the nickel photos on my website. I really don't mind someone getting ideas from something I did, but for goodness sake change the design rather than copy directly. Until recently I never thought it would go beyond copying, and it is a concern. The client who first brought this to me suggested I was naive to think this sort of thing doesn't happen. I will take the suggestions to sign work in a way that others cannot easily duplicate, that seems logical to me. There are so many good ideas, thoughts, information and suggestions being offered here, thanks. Steve Adams

I run into this a lot with my carved stone fireplaces. I see photos lifted from my site, along with lots photos of work done by friends of mine in the U.S. and Italy, on websites for companies selling Chinese fireplaces; they claim these to be their work. One of them didn't even bother photoshopping out the copyright from my photo. I've also found photos of my work on sites in other countries (India, Indonesia) where they claimed it to be theirs and they were trying to get orders.

They sometimes even price these knockoffs at less than what I have to pay for the raw materials. I haven't gotten around to it, but my wife told me to create a signed certificate with a photo of each piece I've done and mail them to the real owner.

Steve Adams - as Ray Cover also stated, from what I have seen of your work, I can't imagine there are many people that could emulate it well enough to have it mistaken for the real thing, and if they could I would think they would want to have it be known who they are?

Abigail - I salute you for persuing the truth and I thoroughly enjoyed the Hummingbird video also.

This subject brought to mind some experiences i've had on EBAY. I have been a member and a buyer for several years now and unfortunately, it is the PERFECT venue for unscrupulous individuals to victimize trusting buyers. There is the anonymity of the internet and EBAY's pay first process that makes it possible for the aforementioned types of sellers to misrepresent an item and profit from it with very little the buyer can do about it.

I had a recent experience whereby I exchanged several pre bid emails with the seller to know the exact condition of a seat for my motorcycle. He just outright lied to me. I bid and won the auction and received a worn out damaged piece of junk. I went through several weeks of aggravation to get a credit but still lost the amount it cost to ship it back and the disappointment of not getting what I bid on.

Additionally, "retaliatory" feedback is supposedly against EBAY rules but in every instance which I was unable to come to an agreement with the seller and left appropriate Negative Feedback, I was further victimized by retaliatory lies. I tried to get assistance from EBAY but considering their profit comes from sellers, they do little if anything to assist buyers!

It is just sad to see and experience the bad side of human nature!

Peter

You can at least prove when someone is using your photograph - http://www.digimarc.com

To go directly to the free image marking plug ins click here

Doesn't help if someone copies your actual work, but at least it lets you easily prove when they use your image.