Critique Request My “arnaud fine scrollâ€￾ practice [photo]

My “arnaud fine scroll” practice

I don’t have Marcus last book and DVD yet so II was searching in the archives for fine English scroll to find out how it looks and how I could come close in my own way.
I have to decorate a few items that I’m not allowed the show them. So sorry for that.
I already engraved some designs in my know how style, but also wanted to try something goody-goody, small that looks nice with the naked eye.

So after studying a bit I started this Ti practice plate. I don’t show it blown-up as then it loses its elegance.
Critique is welcome, as long as you don’t consider this as fine English scroll as I'm sure this isn't.
I know some leaf shapes would look better if a bit wider and a more rounded. This is just my first try. Sure it is a style that works fast.

arnaud

Nice start.

I can't judge it if it's done right or wrong Arnaud but to me it is nice looking an decorative scroll work.

arnaud,Get the book and DVD's you won't be sorry Marcus knows his English scrolls. J.J.

You need frills (what Marcus calls outside work) on the outside to complete the scroll and breakup the edges of the design. Otherwise nice job cutting it.

A few light shade lines around the scroll origins and one on the heads of the scroll would really take it to the next level.

The other thing that jumps out at me are the scrolls that grow back toward the center. The flow of them should in general all grow outward away from the origin.

Nice job I like your "style" a bunch.

scott99

Thanks Dutch

Thanks Willem

JJ, yes I know about that book and probably I will, but as I said, this isn’t an attempt on fine Englisch scroll

Bert, I know about frills (what Marcus calls outside work), but I do not like it that much at the moment. So I used only a outside leaf to fill some areas. I could change my mind while progressing.
The scrolls that grow back toward the center that you mention, I can see them and you are right, would look better making them all face the outside. Thanks for that.


Thanks Scott, indeed it is arnaud style. I would not have posted this one titled ‘FES’ as this isn’t that.
Just based on what I register when looking at Fine English Scroll. And once I know how to do them, I would not be able anymore to come up with a visual interpretation like this.

It is like writing another language that isn’t familiar to you by just writing it down phonetic.

arnaud

Might as well have a go at "proper" English style Arnaud, since everyone probably sees it as an attempt at that despite what you claim.
Apart from a few scrolls going wrong way or somehow not flowing their best, you got a few "background" areas blank,..I quite like it, but somehow it looks like you rushed through that without your usual eye for details.

Since it is your own, I think it's nicely done. I will offer one critique however and it's because I just learned this one myself. The large scroll on the right side of the starter scroll comes off the starter scroll from the wrong direction. It should spiral off in the opposite direction. I never really thought about it until it was pointed out to me in one of my pieces. Once I looked at it, it all made sense to me.
Other than a technicality, this looks nice. I do agree that adding shading from the point of growth of each scroll helps to give the piece depth.
Layne Z

Chris, you see that right, I cut this whiting two hours. It was my excitement that made me rush.
And you are right, I saw those blanks already. I had to find out if my "system would work, that is why I payed less attention on details.
I first did cut all the scrolls (backbone), then all cuts to separate the leaves, after that an extra cut and so on. That works fast but I have to pay more attention I know.

This was only the first attempt to copy a style I don't know much about it, sure you will see a lot of improvement when I show my next one.
And yes I could as well have a go at "proper" English style, but only after exploring it my way.

arnaud

Thanks for the comments , they confirmed what I see when I critique on my own.

Southern Custom said:

The large scroll on the right side of the starter scroll comes off the starter scroll from the wrong direction. It should spiral off in the opposite direction.
Layne Z

Click to expand...

Layne, no it does not grow the wrong way. That big scroll that grows from the starter scroll just starts from the origin scroll point.

Here is the backbone, i have add the direction on that one in red and made the scroll parts red to show the origin and grow direction.

Here is another attempt, less problem areas and nicer flow. All scrolls flowing to the outside ......... except one I see now

arnaud

Arnaud

Looking good!

One thing that I've picked up from Marcus's book is that you want to be using double cuts as well as the single cuts you're using now. After your first teardrop cut make a second, fatter one along the back (outer) side of the first one. Start a little bit along the first cut and finish short of where it ends. The first cut forms the back of the element to the inside of the cut and the second one forms the front of the next element.

Steve, thanks for your comments, I don't have Marcus book yet, however I think I already did cut that second cut
Tell me if I don't.
Here is a detailed one showing the cuts

arnaud

Start your second cut inside the first, not next to it & stop 3/4 the way along..& try to get a teardrop shape "pop" out.
Some of yours are too long but others look fine except for seeing that you started cutting alongside rather than "widening" the existing cut.
You don`t want that small blank space between the starting points of the cuts.
Hope that makes sense?

Thanks Chris, I think I got it. Sure makes sense.

arnaud

Sorry I haven’t been around for a few days guys. I have a flu-type bug and feel dreadful so haven’t felt up to contributing to the forum lately but I felt I had to comment on this thread before it went too far.

I am totally confused by your initial statements Arnaud. You say you were, quote: “searching in the archives for fine English scroll to find out how it looks and how I could come close in my own way,” but later say “Critique is welcome, as long as you don’t consider this as fine English scroll as I'm sure this isn’t.” So what is your remit? Are you trying to produce a form of English scroll or something else?

Either way the initial design you’ve cut and produced is incorrect both a) from a “direction of growth” point of view and, b) as it’s presented you have only just started the design as it is incomplete (basically it’s at the outline stage only). Fine if you just want to bang out something cheap and nasty but if you want to produce good quality work (as I’m sure you do), as is, this just doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

Part of the reason I produced the instructional set was so as the novice engraver can avoid a lot of the fundamental mistakes you’ve made in this engraving. To be honest, I am amazed at how quickly the majority of you have picked up on these simple ‘rules’ and are now able to readily apply them to both your work and critique of others’ work which is what I intended. There is nothing secret or mystical about English scroll it’s just about application of a few simple rules. When you learn these the world’s your oyster and you can develop your own styles of English scroll. At the moment, in my work I’m using 3 or 4 variations all of which classify as English fine scroll (or small scroll) but each of which is very different from the other.

But like most things you need to learn the basics first and if you understood this Arnaud, you would save time and energy and not come up with something that’s been done a million times before and think that what you’ve done is uniquely yours. Sorry if this sounds harsh, it’s not meant to be but I know you like straight talking Arnaud so there is no point in my beating around the bush trying to be diplomatic.

Firstly, your engraved design. Your tool control is good but the cuts need attention. As has been pointed out the secondary cut needs more definition; the teardrop shape needs to be more of a teardrop which will help form a more defined knob of the tendril.

Secondly, you seem to be hung up on the ‘golden mean’ or ‘nautilius’ scroll. This shape does NOT work in every circumstance for engraving scrollwork. You end up with a huge initial space to fill terminating very quickly in the head of the scroll. This can produce a hooking effect which is something to be avoided. The scroll should spiral evenly.

Thirdly, the starter scroll tail is far too big. It should be much smaller, indeed on some German/Austrian small scroll engravings they sometimes miss out the curly tail completely but this doesn’t look right either in my opinion. The space created by the tail of the starter should be continued evenly through the scroll gradually tapering towards the head.

Fourth, the scroll growing from the right of the scroll IS WRONG as you would know if you read my book. It has already been pointed out to you and you argued it is correct. Sorry, but it’s not. Work that scroll around the starter scroll to the opposite side and it grows against the other scrolls - not in the same direction as them.

Fifth, your overall design. Bar sticking to the rule that large scrolls shouldn’t grow from larger ones just about everything else in the design could have been taken from my diagram in my book of what NOT to do!!! Scrolls growing in the wrong direction back towards the starter scroll rather than flowing away from it. To your credit, you’ve taken what was said about this and drawn a second design which is correct apart from a) the shape of the stater scroll and, b) the shapes of the actual scrolls. Adjust these and you’ll have a good basic design.

Sixth, quote: “Bert, I know about frills (what Marcus calls outside work), but I do not like it that much at the moment. So I used only a outside leaf to fill some areas. I could change my mind while progressing.” Outside work is really important. It’s design and make up help define English scroll and unless you are deliberately cutting to a border line (as I do on watches) it is an essential part of the overall design. It evens edges and helps fill odd shaped gaps and softens the harsh edge of the design.

If you think by leaving it out you are doing something ‘different’ or ‘unique’ forget it, it’s what every single apprentice gun engraver thinks at some time or other only to realise later, and with experience, that without outside work the overall impression of English scroll is compromised. We all think at some time or other “Why am I doing all these stupid looking twiddly bits?” only to realise later that they are as much a part of the scroll as the inside work is.

Okay, You might try to fool us by saying that what you are doing is not English scroll but it looks like a fair impression to me so….. you might as well get it right from the start rather than work arse backwards!!! As we all know, it’s easier to rectify mistakes in the beginning than to try to correct them once they have become habit.

Finally, the shading. Basically your scrolls have none and it’s the shading which brings the whole thing to life and gives it dimension. Without shading the whole thing is flat and dead looking. So please, don’t forget the humble shading lines. Also, no blank spaces in English scroll. Any blank spot needs to be either cut into a leaf and shaded or cut away for black.

Conclusion, you need to a) correct the design so the scrolls grow correctly (which you’ve done), b) sort out your scroll shapes (Nautilus doesn’t always work or apply), c) work on the teardrop shaped cut, d) always use outside work unless you are cutting to a line (e.g. filling a box with scroll), and e) always shade your work.

Okay Arnaud, I’ve been blunt and to the point but I hope you can use these pointers to work on and improve your work. I realise this was your first attempt at this style but with not a lot more effort I think you could produce a decent rendition of English fine scroll but it does involve learning some basic rules first rather than coming at it from a bit of an ad hoc manner.

See my simple design on a Spyderco below for what to aim for:

Marcus, like I said, if you critique this as fine English scroll, don't, that because I’m sure it isn’t.

I understand if I want to do that, best way to start is buying your book and DVD but I haven’t and they are sold out.

So It is just an attempt to cut something that may look like English fine scroll for someone who do not know much about that tradition. That doesn’t mean I don’t want your book and learn how to do the Fine English scroll tradition.
You say “it’s easier to rectify mistakes in the beginning than to try to correct them once they have become habit” I do not totally agree on that in my case, as I always learn the most by making mistakes first.
Anyway, thank you very much for taking the time to explain and give support on this one, and I understand why you are confused about my attempt and basic mistakes.
Take care of your flu-type bug,
arnaud

Marcus and others, here are two designs taking notice of what I learned so far without Marcus book

The first is still sort of Nautilus Scroll, the second should be more like it should for Fine English Scroll

arnaud

you have two inward scrolls Arnaud, that's not ment to be I think?