But how does it feel???

I have read all over the internet about engraving, looked at everything I could find to look at, I read about 120degree gravers etc... I am a medioker silver engraver that cant spell. I have at least 3 people that I am helping learn to engrave. I can tell and show them how to make a forehand cut, backhand cap etc. But I have found it more effective to talk about what a cut is supposed to feel like rather than just what it is supposed to look like. I use a Gravermax to engrave sterling at 3200 spm and a cut feels like im scraping gum off of my shoe,(It kindof boggs down and feels like im streching the metal) however I use a gravermiester to engrave steel and nickle silver at 1800spm and a cut feels similar to scooping hard ice cream. Now that I made my self sound nuts, I'm wondering what the high rate of spm of a Lindsay "feels" like. Any attempt would be appreciated as it turns out ive got to make my decision blind. Mach or Palm Control?? Since Post with paperclips seem to get more veiws Im posting a picture as a trick!! Ha Ha Griff----

I cut silver with my gravermax and a flat and it's like going through tube margarine "weird analogy". I use mine around 3200-3400 when bright cutting. What type of hand piece are you using it may need cleaned. If the piston in the hand piece or the rotary thing inside the max is dirty or water in the lines it'll bog out. Try a carbide graver with a mirror finish.

What it comes down to Griff is you are going to have to try both for yourself to see what each feels like.

There is no way any of us can transmit a feeling in text that is going to allow you to compare the two. I prefer the feel of a Lindsay. Sam prefers the feel of a gravermach. Which of our good feelings is going to answer your question? Neither one.

Until YOU try both YOU will never know the difference between the two and which one you like best.

Give Steve a call. He is likely to send you an Airgraver to try out. Find someone in your area who has a gravermach and go try it out.

That way you are making a choice on your first hand experience not our biased preferences.

Ray

I use a 901 handpeice with a t carbide graver 45 face & 15 heel, Im sure the new magnum would give me the small handpeice with the power I want, however Im thinking of trying the Lindsay graver. (with the heavy piston) what Im after is a hand pushed graver feel with out the fatige. I can push engrave a bit but I dont have the confidence on curved surfaces. A 50/50 mix of karosine and auto transmission fluid makes a great graver lube by the way.

Hi Griff

It sounds to me like it has to do more with technique and graver geomatry (I can't spell either!!!)

I've struck metals as you describe "like scooping hard ice cream" and sterling that feels "Gummy".

Perhaps it may pay to experiment a bit with graver shape, heel length, sharpness and polish along with a bit of technique first. By technique I mean.........are you pushing the tool too hard and not letting the tool do it's job properley. I found with the sterling that the more I relaxed the better the cut became and a really small face with a long tapered graver worked better. It took a while to get used to it and I really had to force myself to relax.

With the gun steel I prefer a bit bulkier graver to force things along a bit. With the softer steels I have to ease off a bit and curb my natural tendancy to force things along.

The reason I say all this is that you may find that the problem lays elsewhere and not in the tool.

Cheers
Andrew

How old is the hand piece? My 901 had a bog out problem a while back, I had a worn piston. Got a new one and it's been fine since. When the piston was waring I had to keep upping the air to the hand piece until it was way to high to operate.

giddy up !!!!!!!

thanks for the input your probably exactly right, however the ability to go faster is what im after. The Grs machines seem to lose a little muscle as the SPM's are turned up, the Lindsay is already quite high does the muscle fade with the Lindsay? I at this time do not bear the burden or privliage of great detail I just make fat fast cuts like so:

Thanks Griff...

Griff,
I used to cut a bit of silver and I would reccomend lower rpm whether using the Lindsay Palm, or others. You will get more "torque" at lower speeds. I would use a polished, radiused flat for most of the cuts. The slower speeds work better for most bright cuts. If I was using the Lindsay I would use the Tungsten piston.
And if everything is working, I would say it is somewhat like the hard ice cream you mentioned.
I hope that helps, hehe,
Barry

Griff,
What I like about the Gravermax/Gravermach is that it emulates the action of a hammer and chisel. Think of the SPM adjustment as how "fast" you hit the graver and the foot pedal as how "hard" you hit it. If you want to really remove metal, turn down the SPM and it's much like taking long HARD swings with the hammer when you give the pedal a lot of gas. If you turn up the SPM its like a gentle "tapping" with the hammer. Turn down your SPM and you should cut bright cuts just fine. Even at 2400 SPM its still like hitting the graver at 40 times per second. Many western engravers have fallen in love with the Magnum but the 901 will move a ton of metal too.

Hi Griff,

I agree with everything everyone here has said. You must try both tools to feel them. I have used the 901 on silver since it first came out, and it does a good job. I would try cleaning the handpiece, reduce the speed to around 2500 for heavier cuts, and play around with the air pressure and see if that doesn't cure the bogging down thing. I find that high speed and a heavy foot bogs the 901 down, especially if it's a little dirty. Also, cast silver cuts different than rolled or die struck silver, and annealed silver cuts different than work-hardened. I personally prefer cutting hard rolled sheet or die struck myself. It might be that if you are soldering on silver it's softening it a bit and making it cut funny. Maybe try a lower melt solder. If it glows at all while you are soldering, it'll be soft.

I would also try using a 90 degree graver, highly polished for lines and narrow bright cuts (like lettering), and as Barry recommended a radiused flat for wider brightcuts. The 90 is a little more forgiving (especially in soft silver) and makes it a little easier to control the depth and width of your cuts, at least until you really get a handle on it. For lines in silver, I sharpen my HSS gravers to 90 degrees, with a 10 degree heel and a 55 degree face. For bright cuts I sharpen my number 40 or 42 flat HSS yellow tang with a radiused and polished heel 0 to 10 degrees with a 55 degree face. I also relieve the sides at about 50 degrees right to the cutting edge so I don't get any dragging on the sides. Also, let the tool do the work. You shouldn't have to push hardly at all, just guide. If you are getting white knuckles, you're pushing too much and that might be causing some of your problems. Don't push down either. Raise or lower the graver handle to control the depth. If you're getting ragged edges on the cuts it usually means you're pushing down. At least that what it tells me.

Never did the school thing so I don't know if this is the correct school answer, just what I have found works for me after a whole bunch of trial and error.

As to the speed and power coupling, the GRS and the Lindsay are completely different. The 901 delivers more power at slower speeds, while the Lindsay moves more metal as it speeds up. The difference is that the GRS tool's rotating valve maintains a constant piston cycle speed while the pedal varies the air pressure, but the Lindsay piston varies speed with changes in air pressure. The GRS uses air to move the piston against a spring and the rotating valve interrupts the air flow allowing spring pressure to move it back to make the impact, while the Lindsay uses air pressure to push the piston both ways like a steam engine and uses the inertia of the piston to deliver the impact. The Lindsay changes the impact strength by manually changing the length of the stroke of the piston, whereas the 901 changes stroke length by using more or less air pressure against the spring. That's what causes the bogging in the 901. The spring can't move fast enough to cycle the piston it's full stroke at high speed. Kind of like valve float, if you know engines. That's why you use a stronger spring to increase power in the 901, and a heavier piston to do the same with the Lindsay. The Lindsay doesn't bog down, it just goes faster with the application of more air pressure. You really must feel the difference to be able to decide which you prefer.

BTW, your conchos are looking good!

Dave

griff silver said:

I use a 901 handpeice with a t carbide graver 45 face & 15 heel, Im sure the new magnum would give me the small handpeice with the power I want, however Im thinking of trying the Lindsay graver. (with the heavy piston) what Im after is a hand pushed graver feel with out the fatige. I can push engrave a bit but I dont have the confidence on curved surfaces. A 50/50 mix of karosine and auto transmission fluid makes a great graver lube by the way.

Click to expand...

Your graver lube is exactly what I used to soften my tires before a race! Made them real sticky!

god, i must be totally losing my mind. i am a total fan of the gravermeister, and have a secret romance with the lindsay tool ! god carry me to a safe house till i heal ! even my wife of 40 years doesn't know i've used a dreml tool ! and home brewed hammers and chisels.