Question about Soldering Equipment

I have been doing some work in silver and eventually expect to also work with gold. I do not own any torches (other than a basic propane kit that uses disposable small tanks such as could be used for plumbing).

In class we use acetylene air and I am considering purchasing a torch for use at home and would be interested in recommendations as to what would be a good choice. I do not currently have natural gas at my house.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Adding oxygen will speed things up. A torch brand is usually dependent on what your going to do the most.
The fuel gas of choice, for a basic torch would either be propane or natural gas for general use.
If say your going to concentrate on silver belt buckles. Meco, Smith, or Hoke are the old standards for the
jewellery industry. Which model comes down to how it performs and how it fits in hand.
If you have a jewellery supply house locally go in tell them what you want to do. They will make
some good suggestions.


By the way, this can be a very touchy subject around jewellers, so tread lightly.
Because of this, I only tell people what I use if asked directly. I have used most on the market.
Good luck,
Jim

I use propane most of the time on silver but propane+oxigen on gold.
I am a goldsmith, so most of my soldering is on very small things. Tell us what you are making and we can give you more acurate info.

Eddi

So far, I have made a pendant, a few rings and currently working on a round pill box. I have noticed that when soldering larger pieces, the acetylene air takes quite a long time to get the piece to the temp that the solder flows.

A friend of mine that is a goldsmith liked propane but her studio had natural gas and she switched to that and also likes it. She does predominantly repairs so her work is typically in very small/tight places and is gold.

The person that runs the school where I have taken a couple of classes likes methane/oxygen.

I have been trying to learn as much as I can prior to making a purchase so that hopefully I will make the right choice. From what i've seen to date, it seems like meco and the smith little torch are very popular.

Another consideration for me, is that I will probably store and use it in my basement workshop.

Peter

When you are working with gold you dont have to heat the thing you are soldering as much as with silver. Something like this : http://cgi.ebay.com/Jewelers-Little...ryZ10323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem will work well for gold. For silver I usually use just propane, bigger flame but not as hot. I have a old style torch for that but I did not find it on the net now. Probably dont make them anymore.

I hope that link works. If it does not try to google "little torch"

Hope this helps

Eddi

The Meco is a good all round touch that can handle fine gold work as well as large silver projects.
There is a wide selection of tips that do different things. The main difference in tip is they either
produce concentrated pin point heat or they fan out in no. size to produce a broad heat.
Multi hole tips produce a soft or low BTU flame to slowly raise the temperature of heated object.
With all the tips you can change the BTU out put by how much gas is pushed through the line.

The Smith Little torch is more used for finer gold work but can stretch to doing smaller silver project.
Using acetylene and oxygen with smith torch you can use the micro tips for extremely small work.
This is getting into the range of a .5 to .2mm think stock in diameter.
Using Methane would be very similar to propane. Hydrogen is interesting but a bit expensive to use from
a cylinder. Most platinum smiths don't opt for hydrogen. With the new lazar welders, taking a lot of
production in different direction.

The simple answered to you question is, yes. Both are fine torches that will serve you well.

Jim

I do a pit of soldering in copper and silver and a little in gold. My gas of choice is acetylene. I use it with air for copper and silver as the solder I use melts between 1300 and 1475. The torch is just a plumber's prestolite which I use on a B-tank, but I have a good variety of tips (1 through 6 where the typical plumbing job uses a 3). A 1 tip is good for delicate jobs, and the 6 is pretty much just for annealing or soldering larger items. For gold jobs I use a micro torch that is oxy-acetylene - The solder here is a little higher temp and my jobs are on the small side.

In college we had oxy-natural gas at all the benches. I have always found the acetylene easier to control the temperature. With silver I like the extra time between the solder flowing and the piece turning into a puddle. I also have not had a whole lot of firescale to deal with while using the acetylene where as I did with the oxy-natural gas.

Peter,

I prefer acetylene/oxygen for silver work over propane/oxygen because I find it gets hotter, which is handy for larger pieces like conchos, buckes, and many bigger surfaces common to engraving.

Regarding the torch, it is all personal preference though as Jim mentioned. I like the Smith Mini-Torch because it is light weight and easy to maneuver. However if you need more heat make sure to get the large heat dispersion tip, which will make a hot broad flame.

Hope that helps,
m

Thanks for the information. I don't have a Jewelry supply Brick and Mortar store nearby but there is a place that most everybody gets their gases from. I may give them a call to see what torches they carry and perhaps go there to see what I like. They are called Aero All Gas and just about everyone around this area seems to use them for gas, tanks etc.

Peter

Propane over Acetylene

Hi Peter,


I've stuck with propane for thirty years, as acetylene is very dirty until you know how to add oxygen with it before you light your torch. I also found that the price for propane and the amount you use is far less then with acetylene. Now here's the biggest reason to use propane, you won't have to worry about the dreaded FIRESCALE! as much. Just keep the tourch moving when doing silverwork.

Mark

I agree that the acetylene definitely yields a LOT of firescale. I have only used what they have where I am taking classes, and it is acetylene air that is not mixed with oxygen other than from in the room. We use the borax based white flux and coat the whole piece to keep firescale down some but there is still a significant amount.

It's good to hear from the experts on here as I am not in a hurry, so I can evaluate the options and make my decision based on what would suit my needs best.

Thanks,
Peter

I think it should be noted that the kind of gas being used is not the cause of the firescale. Firescale is a result of oxygen combining with the copper in the alloy of silver (or gold for that matter). If you use acetylene or any other gas be sure to use a reducing flame (a flame that is hungry for oxygen).

I have not had many problems with firescale using acetylene air, but I have done enough soldering that I do not over heat the metal by going too hot or too long.

Propane may be good for someone who has not used acetylene much because it does not get as hot, and is usually a reduction flame (depends on torch and air mixture).

To reduce fire scale. Here is what jewellers do. We mix boric acid which you can a local drug store
or a jewellery tool outlet. With denatured Alcohol, or methyl hydrate. Most any alcohol will do as long
as it burns away. Jewellers use a jar that's usually three inches round and three inches tall.
We fill the jar half full of boric acid. Then fill the jar to the top with alcohol. This make a concentrated
solution.
You dip the piece your working on in the solution and then light it unfire. Be careful, you can
burn up stuff that the alcohol land on, like job envelopes or your pants. This leave a fine powder of
boric acid on the piece to be soldered. The boric acid turns to a glass, keep out the oxygen.

You can use larger container if the piece is to big.

I use a Smith Little Torch with an LP barbeque tank and O2. I have used many different torches over the years, but when I found the Little Torch, the Hoke, Meco, Swiss and all the others hit the "old tool drawer". With all the available tips it will do just about anything I need, including fusing and welding platinum. I can't cast with it, but just about anything you can hold in your hand it can handle, including silver boxes.

I don't like acetylene as it burns dirtier and gave me fits while soldering, but that may be because of early inexperience. LP gets hot enough for everything I do, including casting platinum, so I've never tried it again. It's also cheap and easily available everywhere. You will also go through about ten cylinders of O2 for each LP tank. Hydrogen is expensive, is super clean and gets super hot, but you can't see the flame so you better know what you're doing if you try it.

JimZim hit it right on with the firecoat. I use "Completely Denatured" alcohol, though. It burns nice and clean and doesn't stink so bad. I would add flux to the joint as well, especially on silver. I use Battern's Self Pickling Flux. It's available from anywhere you can find jeweler's torches and soldering supplies. Try Rio Grande or Gesswein. Both have websites. Roycroftron was exactly right about the firescale as well. It's the O2 that causes problems much more than the gas. Too much gas, it just won't get hot enough. Too much oxygen and whatever you're working on will burn up. Use a slightly reducing flame, firecoat and flux and don't get in a hurry. If the flame hisses you have too much O2.

Incidently, the laser welder doesn't work worth a flip on silver. You have to use a felt tip pen to give the light something to work with, and as soon as it's burned off the light reflects off the piece again. I can always tell when someone is working on silver with the laser by the language coming from that side of the shop. Not suitable for little ears.

Dave

Peter; Ive been working in silver, gold, and platinum all of my adult life, almost 40 years. Ive used all the gasses and all the torches. For gas, my money is on propane. The difference in temperature is only a few hundred degrees, and at the 6000 degree range that's not much. Natural is the lowest temp. of the three majors (Acetelyne, propane, natural) and is the cleanest burning. Acetelyne is great if you need to cut or weld or add carbon to steel, but for jewelry work it sucks. Propane is relatively cheap, it's clean, easily portable, and since you're going to use it in your basement, it's pretty stable. You can use standard gas regulators, or the type that comes with a bar-b-que if cost is an issue, by the way you can regulate the volume of gas in these. All of the above is said with the use of oxygen in mind. It adds about 2000 degrees of heat. As far as torches go, I would recomend using a larger version of the mini torch available from Stuller Inc., item # 14-0762. It's a little larger than a Smith, cheaper than a Smith, and uses the Smith tips. Use tip #s 5 or 6 for general soldering, and 7 for heavy soldering. Because of the high thermal conductivity of silver, don't try anything smaller. With the # 7 tip, I can melt an oz. or two of platinum, no small feat. Also, order some boric acid, and some pickle compound. Mix the boric acid with some denatured alchohol to a supersaturated solution, dip the piece and ignite. This will stop oxidation caused by the heat, then put the piece in pickle(this is generally sulphuric acid, so keep it covered or your tools will get this orange-brown colored coating on them), and this will take the fused boric acid off. If you don't, you'll play hell polishing the piece.
I hope this helps, and if you have any other questions feel free to e-mail me at perkinsgaryw@embarqmail.com. Also, if you don't have an acount with Stuller, they can be a pain-in-the-ass to get one. you can go to the website, but you won't get any prices. The torch is $89.95. If you have any problems, contact me, and I'll see if I can work something out with Stuller to have it drop-shipped.

Good luck, Gary

jimzim75 said:

To reduce fire scale. Here is what jewellers do. We mix boric acid which you can a local drug store
or a jewellery tool outlet. With denatured Alcohol, or methyl hydrate. Most any alcohol will do as long
as it burns away. Jewellers use a jar that's usually three inches round and three inches tall.
We fill the jar half full of boric acid. Then fill the jar to the top with alcohol. This make a concentrated
solution.

Click to expand...

Jewelers often use denatured alchohol for the boric acid mixture, but my experience with various hardware store varieties of denatured alcohol has been bad. Some would sputter horribly while burning away. I last purchased a 5 gallon pail of methanol (pure methyl alcohol) from a Green Bay oil company for $12.99 in 1999 and am finally thinking it's nearly time to buy another pail.

Hi Karl,
Boy, are you in for sticker shock. Isn't when gas was sold for under a dollar a gallon.
Jim

Gas used to be under a dollar a gallon?

Great information. Thanks a lot. Seems like all things considered propane would be a good choice. I already have (2) 20lb tanks for my gas grill.

I appreciate your advice and offer Gary. As I mentioned, I do not need to get a torch very soon as I will be taking another class that will take me into November and I can do my soldering there.

Also, a friend that is a goldsmith that specializes in jewelry repair has offered to let me try her equipment using natural gas. She uses a type of flux that I thought was antifreeze as it was that same green color in about a 3 inch wide jar. Seems a major difference between working gold and silver is that working with gold does not require bringing the whole item to temp to flow the solder.

Thanks again for all the input.

Peter

The stuff that looks like antifreeze is probably Battern's. It's sort of a neon green color, although it fades with age. Still works fine even after it's turned almost colorless. Your right about the temp thing too. Silver draws the heat really fast as compared to gold, and especially platinum, so you can't get away with a quick in and out with the torch on silver like you can with other metals. I will sometimes hold the top of a gold ring set with a delicate stone in my fingers when I solder the shank, to be sure I don't overheat it. Don't try that with silver!

As I said, I use "Completely Denatured" alcohol. It is specifically different from denatured (general purpose solvent) and totally different from methanol (engine fuel) and isopropyl (rubbing alcohol). It is made primarily as a fuel for alcohol stoves so it's nearly odorless as it burns and leaves no residue. Only reason I use it is because it doesn't stink or sputter and it's cheap and easy to find (try the paint dept. of your local hardware store or a marine supply company). Truth is just about any alky would work, some just smell bad or are more expensive.

My favorite type of alcohol is single malt scotch whiskey, though. Doesn't do much to prevent firescale, but it sure goes good with a fine cigar.

Stuller can definitely be a pain to work with on getting an account started. That's a good thing because not just anyone can call them up and order what we jewelers can. You really have to be able to prove you're in the business. Good if you're a jeweler, p.i.t.a. if you're not. They will drop ship though.

When I first started driving, there were gas wars. You could get 5 gallons for a dollar on Saturday's with an oil change. You could also buy a brand new Z-28 Camaro for $2800, so I guess it's all relative.