Carbide gravers leathal?

Today I got a carbide graver.
Costs in Holland, about 20,50$ without tax

To my surprise there was this warning included.
It said bad for health when polishing dust inhaled!
How serious is this and how much protection do you all use when polishing engravers?
And is the dust from cobalt and hss gravers as heazardes (forgive me my spelling) as carbide dust?

I use my Imahashi facetting machine with the dual angle grs system, but the warning included the polishing vapour that mists of your lap.

Am a bit curious about how to handle this.

All thoughts are apreciated,

Daniel

Daniel,

The dust off any ground metal is like little sharp shards and it will cut up your lung tissue. However, you have to make it airborne and breathe it in for it to be a danger.

Some guys use vacuum dust collectors on their powerhones, some sharpen with some type of liquid on the lap to keep dust down. Usually you are not making the dust airborne just by sharpening on the powerhone. If you are concerned about it a dust mask would do the trick.

Ray

Daniel
I use mineral oil on the hone cheap,non toxic thick enough so it is not thrown off the wheel. (this tip from Barry Lee Hands) and no dust period

Yes Daniel mineral oil works great as my friend Dave evidently has found. Just a drop or two a week. The only drawback I have noticed is that it will eat the rubber feet off the sharpening fixture.

We know that sintered carbide, as used on tools, is only weakly magnetic, but still can be attracted to a small new style "super magnet". The other alloys of steel are more magnetic. I suppose this has be talked about before, but what about a small supermagnet or two strategically attached around the sharpening jig. Whether or not you are using a lube to help retain debris, surely the magnet will catch some of the spin off metal particles, and can be cleaned off from time to time. I find a steel wool wrapped spindle to be useful in my silver work, using fine 000 steel wool. I have a bunch of ferrite magnets just below the spinning spindle and they collect the steel wool as it dislodges with use. These short lengths, taken off the magnet, can be recycled into little pads for other uses. (By the way, for those who do not know it, fine steel wool, especially 0000 grade, will catch fire and burn fast, if you have it say, near a 9v battery, so be warned. Also, it is not much fun discovering a 2kg roll catch fire off a nearby grinding spark.)

Is anyone using magnets to catch metal debris from graver sharpening?

Rod
Rod

I think, that if you do some deep digging, the hazard is the fumes (gases) that are formed on a high speed grinder. As in the sparks from steel are oxidizing and give of fumes, when ground on a high speed grinder. At the speed of a Power Hone, you would not generate the fumes. Now if the carbide contains Tungsten, that is a problem unto it's self, as Tungsten is a radiological hazard, an Alpa emitter. On board ship, we had to build glove boxes to grind Tungsten TIG welding electrodes in.

As the guys mentioned, a few drops of almost any cutting oil or mineral oil will reduce this hazard to zero. Dry cutting with a high speed wheel *might* kick up a bit of dust, but as slowly as the normal hone rotates, really, the danger is not there.

The oil acts to keep the dust in suspension and it also prevents the wheel from being compacted with the ground-off carbide. Grind away without fear!

Powderhorn, it isn't the tungsten in the TIG tips which produce the alpha radiation. That comes from the Thorium in "thoriated TIG rods".

Tungsten carbide gravers are called "cemented carbides". They are crystalline tungsten carbide particles held together in a binder of melted cobalt. It's the cobalt which is mildly attracted to a sufficiently strong magnet.

The same safety concerns apply as when grinding cobalt steels like M-42, both for particulates and chemical toxicity from the cobalt.

Thank you for the mineral oil tip.

Thanks for the info.

Thank you all for your replie's.
I've come to the conclusion that this warning counts for most airborne dusts and does not elevate the danger of carbide dust to the level of asbestos or similar nastyness.

I am sure you've all read this, but this is the warning.

PRODUCT WARNING

This information must be transmitted to all persons who may come into contact with dust generated from the enclosed product.

CEMENTED CARBIDE PRODUCT WITH COBALT BINDER
All Carbidio carbide grades except:
CD-6N, CE-10N, CD-16N
The above grades contain Tunsten Carbide and Cobalt, with some grades containing Tanalium Carbide.

READ MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET FOR APPLICABLE CARBIDE GRADE BEFORE GRINDING PRODUCT.

WARNING: GRINDING OF THIS PRODUCT WILL PRODUCE DUST OF POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS.

Dust from grinding this product can couse nose, throat, skin and eye irritation and temporary of exposed respiratory disease in a small percentage of exposed individuals. Permanent respiratory disease can lead to disability or death. Coolannt mist from wet grinding may contain dust.
. Avoid brathing dust or mist.
. Avoid prolonged skin contact with dust or mist.
. Use adequate ventilation when grinding.
. Maintain dust level below OSHA and ACGIH levels.
. Use protective devices.
. Wash hand thourougly after handling, before eating or smoking. Dispose of materials according to local, state and/or federal regulations.

Thanks again for the idea's. I'll be sure to place some magnets in my Imahashe facetting machine.

Greetings,

Daniel

Here's what it boils down to... I guess we could go back to plain carbon steel without any alloying agents like cobalt, molybdenum, chromium, etc, but our engraving life between sharpenings would REALLY drop, and some projects would be rejected due to their hardness. These teeny little graver bits are not plutonium or cyanide; just use a few drops of oil and if you're really concerned, use a dust mask. The quantities of material we grind off of a graver are so miniscule compared to most other metalworking industries like machine shops, etc. where they are hogging huge cobalt or cemented carbide bits that are 1,000X plus the size of a graver... these are the guys that realy need to be concerned. Factories take 3/4" or 1" (25mm) solid carbide rounds and turn them into milling cutters with grinding operations that dwarf what we do. Yes in that case there is a hazard, but please don't let these warnings freak you out. They are not poisonous in the strictest sense, but you do want to keep the crud out of your lungs.

For liability purposes they add the warnings, probably even if the quantity shipped is a 1/16" round blank. Dry grinding with a 4,000 RPM wheel, now THAT will generate some particles, not a fine little hone wheel turning 300 RPM.

If you want to get scared, read the warnings on beryllium alloys. Beryllium is one metal I simply refuse to work, and it is commonly found as beryllium copper springs, snap rings, and non-sparking beryllium tools. You don't want to be grinding them.

I think if you take it farther back you will find that artists paints containing cobalt have proven to be the largest contributing factor to an early death short of turps fumes. The prettiest things in nature are usually danger signals. Cobalt makes the most appealing paint.

Just dont get it into your mouth and avoid the dust in a carrier that will penetrate the skin. Use oil as every one has said. You'll live a long time.

Last year they did a study here in the area and said that jogging a mile in downtown denver during an air inversion was the equivilant to smoking two packs of cigarettes. I feel safer inside grinding gravers.

So, chances are you will probably die of a heart attack wondering where your next dollar will come from long before any of the graver dust kills you!

Steve E's post
Joged my memory and yes it need to be joged, anyhow I remember a film clip showing a bunch of ladies painting clock faces in a factory the thing I remember best is they licked the brush to a fine point and were useing radium paint Be carefull out there

This is what I like about the Forums!

You get a ton of informed comments back to you in no time at all, from other engravers who have had interesting experiences in all walks of life.

Rod

100 years ago Chinese White was mostly lead oxide.
And the old guys licked their finger to get it moist to smear on their work.
Then relicked the same finger to smooth it out.
Just one of the old time problems when they still used just carbon steel gravers.
Now we have lead free Chinese White and have to worry about complex metal gravers.
Lets all try common sense and work as safe as possible without freaking out.
Best to all. John B.

That really jerks my chain
Who the heck were those idiots who took out the lead
it has such a nice sweet taste
this new paint tastes like crap
i say we go back to the old ways which were better

my dads house was built in 1876 - still has lead pipes
he lives alone at 98
they say lead consumption makes one stupid but it wears off after a year.
imagine drinking it for over 75 years

Ignorance is bliss?
Thank you for all reply's.
Dust collectors wil definetly be introdused to my workshop.
Just have to figure out how and when.
Allas I have no garden of my own, so I have to put the exhaust out of my walls into public streets. Hopefully these streets are windy enough to dispers the dust quickly.

Thanks again.

Daniel.

All metals & alloys (along with most every other substance) will give off toxic gases (fumes) when heated to the point where it begins to change states or oxidizes. I've been primarily a metal worker for 22 years, you'll find these warnings on just about anything to do with metals, welding, cutting, grinding, ect.

Not to give you anything else to worry about but the dust coming off the grinding wheel is far more dangerous than the dust coming off the tool bit. Diamond dust wheel are usually made using silica as a binding agent for the diamond, green wheels and standard wheel are all composed primarily of silica, aluminum oxide and other toxic substances. After just one week's work in my fab shop, it was nothing to sweep up metal and abrasive dust to fill a 5 gallon pail or more and that was just the heavy stuff, not a full cleaning. Oxy-fuel and plasma cutting put enough smoke in the air to completely brown out the lights to the point where I had to pull them down once a month and scrub them with detergent water and a green scotch pad.

After all these years, had a complete set of tests run, only issue I have is zinc and that's been there for about 15 years since I got zinc poisoning, it's one of the heavy metals your body will not eject quickly and if I'm still alive 20 years from now, I'll still be carrying an excessive amount of zinc with me.

Don't get me wrong, none of it is good for you but unless you have some pre-existing condition that makes you sensitive to exposure, for the little bit you're doing sharpening your own gravers, don't even give it a second thought. Reasonable precautions like keeping your face out of the dust is enough. You should be wearing a face shield anyway because if a grinding wheel comes apart at high speed, it can kill you right then and there.

To put it in perspective, if you're exposed to city traffic (walking or driving) for 10 minutes a day, over a five day week you're sucking in more micro-fine silica and metallic oxides than you will get from sharpening your tools.