The results are in!

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Friends and fellow engravers,

As promised, I said that I would follow up on my opinion with the testing of both the Lindsay Palm Control and the GRS Airtact. I have had both in my possession for the last month both at my home business and at Browning Arms.

Let me start off by saying, I must give credit where credit is due. Glendo Corp (GRS) has come up with a neat design to try to compete with the Lindsay Palm control. The set up was not bad once I receive all the right equipment. As I stated in an earlier thread, I had a little trouble with getting the right accessories. Note to those who may want to try out the Airtact: make sure you are clear when ordering the airtact which machine you are using and what hand piece you are utilizing.

The Airtact worked. I think that is all we can positively say about it. I say we because there was six of us at Browning that all share the same thoughts, experience and opinions. We had a lot of trouble controlling it at first until we adjusted the air pressure on the Airtact machine. Once we learned how to do that, controllability got a little better. We found that after a period of time of engraving (a few hours) that the hand piece is inevitably going to move. Once the hand piece moves, the sensitivity which you spent a period of time trimming to your liking, changes drastically. Sometimes when the hand piece moves in your hand it seems as if you get a huge burst of air and oops, you just found yourself figuring out how to cover up a mistake.

I am curious, when GRS comes out with hand pieces that are capable of more than 4000 SPM, what is going to happen to those people who are using the gravermax and those using the airtact? Will those people have to get a new machine or new Airtact attachments? Will the new hand pieces have enough power?

I guess having the two machines to operate the Airtact isn't all that bad. We just like the simpleness of the Lindsay Palm Control. There is only one small tube coming directly from the air source. Every other adjustment can be made right on the hand piece. Another great point about the Lindsay Palm Control is, you can use almost any source of air whether it be CO2, compressed air (like a scuba tank), air compressor or heck put the tube in your mouth and use your lungs!

The Lindsay Palm Control puts an unbelievable fun feeling back into engraving. You get gorgeous cuts with the capability of going up to 15,000 SPM. We Found with the Airtact it was like having a restriction not allowing us to go over 35 mph in a 70 mph zone. We really like only having to have one hand piece. The Lindsay Palm Control has a adjustment ring on the hand piece to control the stroke length witch is even a lot finer than the Monarch. It really does make a unbelievable difference. The more you push the faster it goes. You don't need to use a push tool anymore. You can do spectacular exhibition shading with the Lindsay. When you get to that certain depth of shading where you need caution, power magically appears with the Lindsay Palm Control. If your worried about the capability of "plucking, popping, flicking" we found that both Lindsay and GRS equipment responded the same.

Browning Arms Company will be purchasing a Lindsay Palm Control and Foot control. The results are 6 in favor of the Lindsay and 0 in favor of the Airtact. If you are stuck financially You will do fine with the Airtact. But I seriously suggest you find a way to give the Lindsay Palm control and honest try.

Best Regards,

Rich Hambrook
Browning Arms Company
 

lesholmes

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Thank you for your review. I feel sure many engravers will value it. As an amatuer who already owns the Airtact, the review will not affect my spending, but may guide others.

Regards,

Lester
 
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The results are in

Lester,

That is fantastic! Welcome to the hand engraving world. I am glad you are satisfied with your equipment. I think you misunderstood the purpose of my post. I am simply just reviewed the two products. Don't get me wrong. GRS makes a good product. The people there are fabulous as I am friends with some. The instructors are unbelieveable. I have taken a few courses at GRS to include one GrandMasters. I don't believe anyone will fault me for using a different product other than GRS. I still purchase many, many items from GRS because like I said....they make a good product. I have used a GraverMax for almost 8 years and it served me well. I just finally had the opportunity to try a Lindsay Palm Control and instantly fell in love. It is a remarkable hand tool and I want people to know there is other products out there. After all, we are all here to help one another. I am continiously inspired by many great engravers and if there is something out there that I feel will help others to improve I don't have any reserves or regrets to let them know. I wish you the best in your journey as an engraver.

Respectfully submitted,
Rich Hambrook
 

John B.

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Without wishing to offend you Richard:-

It’s very easy to become evangelical about a new tool or product when we are in the romance stage.

But the thread here and also on the Lindsay forum begs the following question.

When can we expect to see this new tools you speak of bring the quality of current Browning engraving up to the standards set by the FN factory engravers who used a hammer and chisel to embellish the Browning’s of the past?

Or maybe as many, perhaps including you, believe there is more to it than just tools?

The fact remains, practice and application of skill with whatever tools are at hand will produce the superior work.
I believe the older Browning’s engraved with H&C bear out this fact.

As you know if you were to pay $300 for all the engraving tools of some of the best engravers in the world you would be cheating yourself.

We could go on and on about apprenticeships, factory training, time allowed for each job, the current economics of production and all the other factors ‘till we’re blue in the face.

While I realize that you are justifiably enthused with your new tool, I hope we can shy away from leading some people to think that the magic is in the tools.
It is important that newer engraving folks and clients don’t believe this is the case.

Respectfully.

John B.
 

jimzim75

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I think I'll wait and try out both at Reno. To me it's a lot of money either way. All due respect to the engravers at
Browning, but a gun and a ring may need different things. I trust what my hands tell me. Which one feels right.
I hope both set a booth to make this possible.
Jim
 
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John,
I oppoligize if I offended you in any certain way. I agree 100% and I disagree 100%. I still used a h&c on a daily bases. When I restore a pattern that was originally done with a H&C I will use a hammer and chisel to restore it. There is no doubt that some of the worlds finest engravers are strictly using a hammer and chisel to this day. Although an air powered tool gives you a much, much smoother and brighter cut. So to make a long story short, different applications require different tools. As far as the quality of standrads set by the old Masters, which deserve all the respect in the world, are you aware that a certain percentage of the originals have been restored by "modern" engravers. I think that they are doing a decent job upholding those standards.

Thank you for your input.

Respectfully submitted.
Rich Hambrook
 

Glenn

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John B. Thanks for your comments. I think your wisdom may have fallen on deaf ears. Far more than the tools and the words make the master. Talent, practice and study lead the way to becoming a great engraver.
 

Marcus Hunt

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Glenn and John, I'm with you 100%. In some ways I wish air assist had never been invented; I'd love to see two engravers argue over which way was the 'best' way to hand push or use hammer and chisel!!! It just wouldn't happen. Each would listen to the other and garner as much knowlege from the other as they could even if they never planned to 'try' the other engraver's method.

The 'buy a machine, add water and get the instant engraving expert' school of thinking is absolutely amazing! I wish that after the first 3 months I'd been engraving that I'd had the gonads to turn around to my father and tell him the best tool to use.....I know darned well what would've happened!

Seriously, if you like your tools that's great. And if there's anything new on the market or someones found a way of doing something that they want to share that's even better. But this "My tool's better than yours!" has been done to death now. I for one am getting exceedingly bored with it and I'm sure others are too. John B speaks great words of wisdom, words that in my opinion deserve a great deal of respect.
 

FANCYGUN

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I usually tell my students.
"I can teach you how to cut a line...........Now what are you going to do with that line?
 

John B.

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John B. Thanks for your comments. I think your wisdom may have fallen on deaf ears. Far more than the tools and the words make the master. Talent, practice and study lead the way to becoming a great engraver.

Thank you for your wise comment, Glen.
You hit the nail on the head in a few words.
Skill, study and the application of it are what count as you say, not tools.
Fancy tools are nice to own but will only take you so far.
All engraving tools and systems have the ability to produce work that exceeds our ability.
And many fine engravers can produce masterwork with a preverbal rusty nail.

It’s time to get over tool wars in our little industry.
Again, with due respect to Richard and the Browning Company does anyone believe that with the aid of the modern tools, better lighting and optics that the work that is produced today is on a par with the older Browning H&C work from the FN factory?

Just my thoughts, it isn’t just tools.
 

John B.

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Zernicky.
Welcome to the Cafe.
I have seen some of the fine work in lettering that you have posted and it's remarkable for someone so early in their engraving career. Congratulations.
I am sorry that you did not get to try out both systems before buying.
One of the few disadvantages of living in Hong Kong I suppose.
I am aware that you have settled on using the fine Lindsay tool at this time.
May I point out to you that this is a personal choice because it suits you better personally.
Also, there are master works produced by engravers that chose a different brand or tool systems.
It's not the tools my friend, it's the artist behind the tools.
Anyway, good to have you join in the frey.
I know we will be seeing great things from you in the future.
Best of luck on your engraving adventure.
John B.
 
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From a total newbie,
I looked into both tools, and was fortunate enough to try the system from GRS. When I purchased the system it really helped me to advance to the point that I could sell my work, (18th century muzzleloaders) and feel better about it. In talking to Steve Lindsay I must say that he is a generous and talented individual, he just was not set up to do credit cards at the time. I am happy with my choice, after a year reading on both forums I must admit that I am happier yet as there seems to be a very distinct feeling around Steve's site, this is no reflection on Steve himself, but a large portion of his users have an elitest attitude and have turned me away from that site, just my feelings.
 

Brian Hochstrat

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As most know I have been engraving for only a short time, but in that time I have covered alot of ground. I don't give out advice often the older fellas like John B, Sam ect. are better suited for that. Also I stay out of the tool wars I have and use both systems and play them to their strengths. I believe in tradition so I am even learning some H&C, may only ever do practice plates but I want to know I can do that as well.

With all that disclaimer, I will say from one student to others, put down the tool and pick up a pencil. To put it simply you have to cut straight lines and curved lines thats about it. The design you cut and the artistry displayed is where it all is. I don't cut any better than the next guy, anybody can cut a line, but my study of the art and thousand of sheets of paper have moved me out of that beginner level. The tools that will give you the most progress in your engraving is study material and a pencil. Once you have gained the artistry the technique will easily follow. It is called the art of engraving not the technique of engraving. Just my opinion its worth what it cost you. Brian
 

Abigail

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Hi Brain,
I'm sitting here laughing like crazy because you referred to Sam as an "older fella". :D :D Sam is sitting at his computer (our computers are side by side) and he asked me what was so funny. We are both still laughing. :p
It reminds me of a song that I sing at our gigs called "Strawberry Wine". One of the lines is "..and I still remember when 30 was old". Thanks for the 'pick-me-up' Brian. I needed that. ;)
Cheers!
Abigail
 

John B.

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Great post, Brian. The pencil and paper are awesome tools.
You're gonna be a great teacher one of these days and you're already a first class metal pecker.

I am on old fellow for sure, but were you refering to Sam A. or Sam W. as the other oldie?????
Either way, watch your back!
Abigail's post got me to thinking which Sam you meant.
To be PC I'm going to say they are both youngsters with a whole lot of savy.
How's that for bunting?
Age doesn't bring wisdom.
Otherwise I would have stayed out of this whole thing.
But it does makes you sneekier.
Best. John B.
 

Lee

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I can't believe I'm jumping in. Age hasn't made me any wiser. Kudos to Brian. You learn quick and I'm excited to see what you bring to Reno. For those that say tools make a difference I think they are quite right...........at least for beginners. The more natural it feels in your hand the quicker you learn technique but as Brian so aptly said not the art. Those experienced are not as likely to see a noticeable improvement in their work. For those who say tools do not make the engraver they are right...........when you look into the future and examine the art. Tools do not design or draw they execute technique. We most admire the great ones because of their art and designs. I've seen some fairly rough engraving that looked great because of the artistry not the execution. Use the tools you like that help you progress and spend many hours with a pen or pencil. Now I've either offended both sides or carefully walked the line and pointed what I see as correct on both sides.
 

Peter E

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As the saying goes "age is mind over matter....if you don't mind it doesn't matter". By the numbers, I consider myself OLD but when I say that many people say I am young. I am 54.

Peter
 
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