All I want is to do some super-basic designs. Why is engraving the Da Vinci Code?

DWdame

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Hi all -

I'm new here. *wave* I'm a beginning metalworker making basic piercing & cut-out accessories and jewelry.

I would love to expand my design capabilities by being able to engrave basic details onto my flat pieces.

For instance: if I cut out something like, I dunno, a bunny charm- i'd want to be able to engrave a simple circle for an eye, and add a line along the inside of an ear. Just really simple stuff.

But for the life of me - I cannot find any info on super-basic engraving. It is apparently quite the hoarded secret. While I'm sure I could eventually get into it, I don't feel the need to carve anything like elaborate scroll-work at the moment.

I certainly can't shell for a powered engraver. I'm fine with learning hammering (I also do leathercraft), but I'd especially like to learn to use a push graver.

Any nuggets of wisdom would be gathered up with the deepest appreciation ;)

P.S. this forum is awesome. Sort of reminds me of leatherworker.net.
 

Neo Dutch

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Really complex engraving is just lots and lots of simple bit put together.

Get a presharpened chisel from Steve Lindsay and away you go.
 

Roger B

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DW,

What sort of information are you looking for?

If you only want to put a few accents on jewellery pieces grab a graver and start practicing. A lot of information you seek is already on the forum or in the hints area. Whilst the air assist tools are great for someone who wants to tackle firearms or detailed designs and lettering on jewellery you just seem to want to cut simple lines so the push method will be a good option without spending a fortune.

What tools do you have - what are you prepared to buy? You need to secure the item being worked on - hot melt glue and a block of wood will do that for you. Ideally this will be held in an engravers block or vice so that you can turn the piece into your graver - it doesn't work too well if you actually push the graver into the metal. As for the shapes of the gravers start with square and some rounds, perhaps some liners to give a florentine finish. Sharpening the gravers consistantly to shapes that cut well can be a bug-bear for beginners - have a look at the templates found on the Lindsay site but note that you will be unable to sharpen the traditional gravers with these templates - they won't fit.

Most of the DVDs and books (even the very old ones) give tecniques and examples beyond where you want to go so most won't be of use. Best advice is to get to know a local engraver who could give you lessons or just be on hand for helpful pointers - there is sure to be at least one in your area.

Apart from these things - read Sam's or the Lindsay's sites and as I said - get cutting.

Roger
 

Sam

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DWdame: Welcome to the Cafe. Roger has give you some excellent advice. I believe your first order of business should be to find someone locally who can point you in the right direction. While what you're wanting to do is relatively simple, there are some variables that can cause you to crash and burn without you knowing why. Such as sharpening the graver correctly, graver length, holding the piece correctly, being able to rotate the piece while cutting (hand engravers turn the work INTO the graver when making curved cuts), etc. Once you get everything just right, it'll be much smoother sailing, and having a local hand engraver show you what you need to get started will save you many hours of frustration.
 

Crazy Horse

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Roger's advice is great. Many years ago when I first got interested in hand engraving I visited the jewelry engravers on what is commonly called "Jewelwes Row" in my city. They were reluctant to show me anything. I was fortunate to find one ...one, who did show me some basics. I even found a guy who was originally from Russia who did all of his engraving on a leather sand bag, never using an engraver's vise and his work was museum quality. So check out any local jewelry engraver.

For what you want to do you don't need a lot of equipment. As Roger said, get a basic book on hand engraving from "Amizon," James Meeks book is a very good starting point. But let me say that you will need to invest considerable time in practice. Proficiency with a burin doesn't come easy.
 

Christian DeCamillis

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Eric Olson

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I did "basic" jewelry detailing for years with simple push gravers - even bead setting and mille-grain.
I had a "bench-mate" work holder at that time instead of an engraver's vise.
It's important to have something to hold your work so both hands are free.
 

DWdame

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You guys are fantastic - thank you so much!

Roger -
I did not realize that you push the metal into the graver and not the other way around... Interesting!
I absolutely agree- seems like the books/DVDs are beyond what I'm interested in at the moment.

Sam -
I keep looking online for classes on engraving - even trade school classes - but Houston is just classless, apparently.

Chris -
Thanks! My metalwork teacher suggested something similar, but I hate having to anneal as I work, since I don't have a torch setup quite yet. Plus, I do have some tattoo-inspired things I'd like to work on - so buckling down and learning engraving sounds like the best choice.

CrazyHorse -
Hmm, the sandbag sounds interesting. That is one piece of equipment that has many potential uses.

Eric -
That's good to know. I do have a small rotating vise, but it's a cheapo one from Amazon.

Things that confuse me:

1) The different shapes of gravers and what they are used for. (I've read about it, but ultimately I need a youtube video or a demonstration)

2) I have diamond benchstones to sharpen my round knife with - can those be used to maintain gravers? (This feels like a stupid question)

3) If I truly want to learn engraving, am I cursed with an inevitable $500 engraving block/vise purchase?

I have visions of a lazy-susan & a leather sandbag. If I just encase my hand with alligator tape, I should be able to preserve most of my fingers, yes?
 

DWdame

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Hey Tom,

That tutorial clearly took a lot of work and effort on your part - I really appreciate your sharing it with me. I'm not a knife-maker, but your information is laid out in a sufficiently logical way for me to follow along. So thanks!

Except now I can't decide between H&C or push engraving. hahaha...

I like the idea of not needing a zillion dollar rotating vise thing to begin with. And I'm partial to the H&C because I can use similar skills in leather carving.

I will have to stare at your info some more- I'm a bit confused at the need for power tools if I've got a bench stone. My 'drill press' is the Dremel tool + Dremel drill press setup. So, it's not a serious-business drill press. Works for my piercing purposes, though.

(I should note that my metalwork teacher frowns on the diamond cutting discs with Dremel because it can divest students of a finger very quickly.)

If I understood you correctly - you're saying use a bench grinder to form gravers and then the bench stone to finesse them.

Someone here suggested I get pre-shaped gravers. If I could get the sharpening setup thing, I'm wondering if I could maintain the pre-shaped gravers with the universal kit + my bench stones?

Thank God for the kit - because the thought of hours of practice and screw-ups are fine with me, but puzzling out geometry and angles makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a jewelers file real quick. :shock:
 

monk

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for annealing, one only needs a simple hand held propane torch-- available in any hardware outlet.
your diamond sharpeners will do for the gravers. for gravers to really perform well, you'dd need at least down to 800 grit finer can be achieved using common wet& dry paper placed on a flat surface.
roger bleile did a glossary. there's much in that to de-mystify many of the terms or words engravers use.
 

tsterling

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Hey Tom,

I will have to stare at your info some more- I'm a bit confused at the need for power tools if I've got a bench stone. My 'drill press' is the Dremel tool + Dremel drill press setup. So, it's not a serious-business drill press. Works for my piercing purposes, though.

If I understood you correctly - you're saying use a bench grinder to form gravers and then the bench stone to finesse them.

Tom's Rule Number One: A properly sharpened graver is the ONLY route to success for a beginning engraver, especially learning via the Internet WITHOUT an experienced instructor sitting at their elbow. While many of the engravers who have been answering your questions could sharpen a nail on the concrete of their back steps and create a masterpiece, a beginner can not. That's why I've spent so much time in the tutorial going on and on about sharpening - many experienced engravers will tell you that you can sharpen by hand and without sharpening aids, but your chances of success WITHOUT an experienced engraver at your elbow teaching you are severely reduced, and you will quickly get discouraged and go find something else to do.

I use the power hone to both create the graver geometry the first time, and to re-form and sharpen/maintain the graver. The powered system is especially useful during the initial shaping when you will be removing a lot of metal. Hand (bench) stones will take a lot more time, but would certainly be useful for a simple resharpening. However, I've found that a beginning engraver (especially H&C) really mangles the point, so lots of metal must be removed to get the graver back into the fight, hence my recommendation for the powered sharpening system. Every "serious" knifemaker has a drillpress, so that was my recommendation to them. Perhaps you might use a friend's drillpress to shape the graver the first time, and then the hand stones to resharpen when you break the point. And you will break the point. Many, many times.

My tutorial is designed to give a knifemaker a taste of what engraving is about for the least cost and in sufficient detail so decorative "sculpting" would be possible - BUT with a decent possibility of succeeding. To accomplish the things you see experienced engravers doing on this forum will require LOTS of practice, and more advanced equipment. Push and H&C engraving both require a long, and steep learning curve. It is my experience that a powered engraving system and decent sharpening equipment will cut YEARS off of the learning curve.

Your statement - (I should note that my metalwork teacher frowns on the diamond cutting discs with Dremel because it can divest students of a finger very quickly.), I'm not certain what you mean there. The diamond sharpening laps I'm recommending are about 6 inches in diameter, designed for very low speed, and you would certainly NOT want to try to use them in a Dremel. Additionally, there is diamond only on one side and not the edges, so they would be useless for cutting.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have very little experience with push engraving. I found it only useful for engraving my other hand, creating lots of little painful red-colored "bulino" spots in an unpredictable pattern. I can't recommend push engraving. Try the H&C route, and if you like it, then move on as soon as financially possible into Lindsay, GRS, or now the Enset powered engravers.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Best of Luck!

Tom
 
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DWdame

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Hey Tom -

I hear you about the sharpening. If I had the money or the ability to go learn at the elbow of an experienced engraver I most certainly would. Sadly, I also don't have $2-3k to spend on a powered system.

What I do have is lots of time to fiddle in my workshop.

I try to be realistic about both my level and my goals- I'm 29, and I've only been doing metalwork for about a year. So I'm not looking to instantly supplement my income with fabulous intricate engraving.

Everyone's advice on here has been really informative and helpful- so I'll just have to work with what I have and hope for the best. Thanks again
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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You Know, it seems Meeks book and Lynton McKenzies tapes/discs have been put in a time capsule.
Sam was trained by Lynton,and MANY MANY of the top american engraver initially learned how to engrave with the help of James B. Meeks book,The Art Of Engraving.
Both available from Brownells.
These WILL give you all the info. to do what you wish.
After you digest these sources,THEN you will be in a position to comprehend these "modern" sources ,classes etc.
It sounds like you are one of the FEW who are actually willing to learn to walk BEFORE you try and run.
If you can only afford one of the tapes,get the first one,Lynton will show you what tools you NEED,and how to set up an vise for next to nothing.
God Bless,
michael

http://www.brownells.com/books-vide...engraving-with-lynton-mckenzie-prod27245.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/books-vide...rt-of-engraving-by-james-b-meek-prod1693.aspx
 

Red Green

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Mike I like your logic, before studying English everyone should be fluent in Latin, how's yours? Learning to walk and run is for children, reaching your goal is the next step. You can stop to smell every flower on the path and gaze upon the horizon in wonder or jump in a Maserati and get there, whatever, enjoy the trip.

Bob
 

DWdame

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Mike I like your logic, before studying English everyone should be fluent in Latin, how's yours? Learning to walk and run is for children, reaching your goal is the next step. You can stop to smell every flower on the path and gaze upon the horizon in wonder or jump in a Maserati and get there, whatever, enjoy the trip.

Bob

I dunno Bob - I'm going to have to side with Michael on this one ^_- For me personally, slow and steady wins the race. I took 5 years of Japanese college courses - started 10 years ago at 19 learning it. Am I fluent? No. Can I speak/read/write and tutor some Japanese? Yeah. Sometimes things are just a long-haul type of operation. If you try to go fast you'll just end up rage-quitting. But hey - on the other hand, if you can afford a Maserati then by all means go for it ^^
 

Andrew Biggs

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Mike is right, the Lynton Mackenzie tape number one (or the Meeks book) and a few basic tools will give you what you are looking for. It will show you the basics on cutting simple lines and hand sharpening.

Then the rest is up to you. It will still require you to practice a bit. Once you start 99% of your questions will be answered.

It's not rocket science........we just like to turn it into that :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

DWdame

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It's not rocket science........we just like to turn it into that :)

Ha! Thanks Andrew - I was starting to wonder if there was some sort of secret blood-letting ceremony required haha. The leathercrafting I do is self-taught, and you can find some basic videos on YouTube or go to Tandy and take a mini-class. But dang if engraving ain't an epic quest for information. I'm glad you guys were willing to offer up some advice, I appreciate it.
 

mrthe

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Ha! Thanks Andrew - I was starting to wonder if there was some sort of secret blood-letting ceremony required haha..

Yes this ceremony exist
You will find out the first time you will hurt a graver point on a finger or in a hand, i don't know any engraver that has not been at least once.
This is our secret blood ceremony :)
 

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